Author Topic: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......  (Read 14329 times)

Shaker

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 06:39:26 PM »
The press have always taken the position that since Thatcher it is only they that can deliver Tory victories for instance the Telegraph was quite open that they would have to do a hatchet job on Miliband rather than depend on Cameron to win his own elections.
And yet when it fell to the Scaly Mail rather than the Torygraph to do the hatchet job on Miliband via his father, it was a spectacular foot-bullet since what transpired was so divorced from reality, so ludicrous, so scurrilous that it earned Miliband a great deal of sympathy and support.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 06:42:28 PM by Shaker »
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Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2015, 06:40:31 PM »
The racist fourth verse was once included in the dirge, Rose.
That's good enough for me to treat it with contempt.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2015, 06:42:38 PM »
It wasn't ever officially included as is made clear in Rose's link I blame Billy Connolly

Gordon

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2015, 07:05:17 PM »
It wasn't ever officially included as is made clear in Rose's link I blame Billy Connolly

I didn't know that, and I'll obviously accept that this verse isn't in the current version.

Even so, it is still an odious song containing odious sentiment about an odious institution.   

Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2015, 07:07:00 PM »
That song wasn't racist, Rose - it was sectarian, a particularly vile attitude in the West of Scotland.
The Scots Government has banned the singing of sectarian songs at public gatherings or sporting venues (much to the disgust of certain bigots on both sides of the sectarian divide)

Seeing you quoted a particularly sectarian song, Rose, can I reciprocate by quoting what my candidate for Scotland's National Anthem should be?
'Flower of Scotland' is fine, I suppose. I knew the late Roy Williamson; he never intended the song to be Scotland's anthem.
Instead, Hamish Henderson's wonderful lyrics are still relevant today.
Henderson himself served as an officer in the 51st Highlanders during the Italian campaign in WWII.
The tune is the lilting pipe tune "Bloody Fields o Flanders".


Roch the wind in the clear day's dawin
Blaws the cloods heilster-gowdie owre the bay
But there's mair nor a roch wind blawin
Thro the Great Glen o the warld the day
It's a thocht that wad gar oor rottans
Aa thae rogues that gang gallus fresh an gay
Tak the road an seek ither loanins
Wi thair ill-ploys tae sport an play

Nae mair will our bonnie callants
Merch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw
Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan
Mourn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw
Broken faimlies in lands we've hairriet
Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair
Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet
Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare

Sae come aa ye at hame wi freedom
Never heed whit the houdies croak for Doom
In yer hoos aa the bairns o Adam
Will find breid, barley-bree an paintit rooms
When Maclean meets wi's friens in Springburn
Aa thae roses an geans will turn tae blume
An the black lad frae yont Nyanga
Dings the fell gallows o the burghers doun.

English translation:
It's a rough wind in the clear day's dawning
Blows the clouds head-over-heels across the bay
But there's more than a rough wind blowing
Through the Great Glen of the world today
It's a thought that would make our rodents,
All those rogues who strut and swagger,
Take the road and seek other pastures
To carry out their wicked schemes

No more will our fine young men
March to war at the behest of jingoists and imperialists
Nor will young children from mining communities and rural hamlets
Mourn the ships sailing off down the River Clyde
Broken families in lands we've helped to oppress
Will never again have reason to curse the sound of advancing Scots
Black and white, united in friendship and marriage,
Will make the slums of the employers bare

So come all ye who love freedom
Pay no attention to the prophets of doom
In your house all the children of Adam
Will be welcomed with food, drink and clean bright accommodation
When MacLean returns to his people
All the roses and cherry trees will blossom
And the black guy from Nyanga
Will break the capitalist stranglehold on everyone's life!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 07:18:27 PM by Anchorman »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2015, 07:31:03 PM »
Interesting to note that the Torygraph has no problems printing all six verses of Lizzie's dirge....and the one that's not supposed to be included is still included......


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/1571287/God-Save-the-Queen-lyrics.html


racist tripe.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

jeremyp

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2015, 09:52:59 PM »
It is an odious song with an odious sentiment about an odious institution - and nothing on earth would force me to sing it or stand 'respectfully' for it (the verse asking God to help Wade to 'rebellious Scots to crush' doesn't exactly encourage me greatly).

Your repeating of that myth doesn't exactly encourage me. That verse was never part of the official National Anthem. And it was written in response to the Jacobite rebellion of 1745 in which some rebels — some of whom were Scottish — invaded England, getting as far South as Derby.
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Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2015, 09:57:05 PM »
And?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

jakswan

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2015, 10:06:54 PM »
Interesting to note that the Torygraph has no problems printing all six verses of Lizzie's dirge....and the one that's not supposed to be included is still included......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/1571287/God-Save-the-Queen-lyrics.html

racist tripe.

Its not racist tripe but nationalist tripe, besides Rebellious Scots isn't fair, moaning is a more accurate adjective! :)
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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jeremyp

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2015, 10:12:30 PM »
Its not racist tripe but nationalist tripe, besides Rebellious Scots isn't fair, moaning is a more accurate adjective! :)

In the context in which it was written, a rebel army had come down from Scotland and invaded England. There was a fair amount of justified concern about rebellious Scots, although it was more complicated than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cGJmxVYQ2o
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Hope

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2015, 10:13:55 PM »
The press have always taken the position that since Thatcher it is only they that can deliver Tory victories for instance the Telegraph was quite open that they would have to do a hatchet job on Miliband rather than depend on Cameron to win his own elections.
I seem to remember several sections of the press making a huge song and dance about how they had delivered the British electorate to Blair, back in 1997. 

Quote
I suspect that is the reason Cameron is throwing the towel in because he knows a press so pumped with the ability to select the leader would try the stunt on a sitting Tory PM sooner or later.
And which towel would that be, Vlad?
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Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2015, 10:30:01 PM »
Interesting to note that the Torygraph has no problems printing all six verses of Lizzie's dirge....and the one that's not supposed to be included is still included......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/1571287/God-Save-the-Queen-lyrics.html

racist tripe.

Its not racist tripe but nationalist tripe, besides Rebellious Scots isn't fair, moaning is a more accurate adjective! :)


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No, not nationalist, jakswan.
Scots fought on both sides - Charles Stewart and Butcher Cumberlands armies.
Niether cause, if victorious, would have resulted in Scotland's freedom.
Both leaders were inbred examples of why Republicanism is a far more viable option.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

jakswan

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2015, 07:04:41 AM »
Interesting to note that the Torygraph has no problems printing all six verses of Lizzie's dirge....and the one that's not supposed to be included is still included......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/1571287/God-Save-the-Queen-lyrics.html

racist tripe.

Its not racist tripe but nationalist tripe, besides Rebellious Scots isn't fair, moaning is a more accurate adjective! :)

No, not nationalist, jakswan.
Scots fought on both sides - Charles Stewart and Butcher Cumberlands armies.
Niether cause, if victorious, would have resulted in Scotland's freedom.
Both leaders were inbred examples of why Republicanism is a far more viable option.

Yes but they were not true Scotsmen AM, besides it still would not have been a race issue!

Are you frit? :)
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Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2015, 07:52:32 AM »
The song predates Nicola, Rose - it was written in 1960, before SNP were anything like a credible party.
Henderson had been a passionate advocate for an end to war, nuclear disarmament, and race tolerance ever since his experiences in Siciliy and Italy as an intelligence officer in WWII. on returning home, he founded "The School of Scottish Studies" in an effort to preserve Scots language and culture.
Along with Willie Lomax - an American, - and Ewan McColl,  (Kirsty's dad) he collected many songs from the travelling community ( the 'gaberlunzie fawk') and smaller communities, and stimulated the folk revival in Scotland.
He was also a very well respected poet - a 'makar' in his own right.
The sentiments of welcoming  'a the bairns o Adam' into the land simply reflects the fact that Scotland is a nation of immigrants, and long may it remain so.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2015, 07:59:01 AM »
I have posted this before but following on from Jim's post seems appropriate


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yChTjZqGCt0
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 09:48:51 PM by Nearly Sane »

Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2015, 08:08:30 AM »
I have posted this before but following on from Jim's post seems appropriate


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yChTjZqGCt0


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Great stuff, NS - especially given the origins of the person singing it!

Mind you, I prefer Dick Gaughan's version.

(Actually, that goes for just about anything Gaughan records.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI-ShJft9Bc
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

jeremyp

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2015, 08:27:53 AM »
I seem to remember several sections of the press making a huge song and dance about how they had delivered the British electorate to Blair, back in 1997. 


Just because it is in the press does not make it true.
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ekim

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2015, 09:39:38 AM »
I have posted this before but following on from Jim's post seems appropriate


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yChTjZqGCt0


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Great stuff, NS - especially given the origins of the person singing it!

Mind you, I prefer Dick Gaughan's version.

(Actually, that goes for just about anything Gaughan records.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI-ShJft9Bc
That applies to the German tenor who sang  'Rule Britannia' at the Last Night of the Proms.  For him 'the war is over'.

Gonnagle

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2015, 11:49:01 AM »
Dear Jim,

Aye thats a nice song, gets the Scottish heart a fluttering, but what does it mean tae the wee wifie standing in the queue at the foodbank in Liverpool or Birmingham or even London.

I am a royalist but I applaud Mr Corbyn for his stand, he will bend the knee if it means a better Britain.

Gonnagle.
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Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2015, 01:15:07 PM »
Dear Jim,

Aye thats a nice song, gets the Scottish heart a fluttering, but what does it mean tae the wee wifie standing in the queue at the foodbank in Liverpool or Birmingham or even London.


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Nothing, since it was written in Scots, by a Scot, for a Scotland emerging from the suffocating  dross of a british empitre fixated on the ppast.
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I am a royalist but I applaud Mr Corbyn for his stand, he will bend the knee if it means a better Britain.

Gonnagle.


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Since I couldn't give a stuff for britain, better or otherwise, and much prefer a head of state voted for by the people, rather than one who popped into existance because her mum and dad had sex in the right bed (an unusual phenomenon amongst the 'royals'), I can't comment.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2015, 01:50:16 PM »
How about trying to find some feeling for the British then? Or don't you give a stuff about them either unless they belong to Scotland?

jakswan

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2015, 02:30:07 PM »
Since I couldn't give a stuff for britain, better or otherwise, and much prefer a head of state voted for by the people, rather than one who popped into existance because her mum and dad had sex in the right bed (an unusual phenomenon amongst the 'royals'), I can't comment.

This why we would be better off getting Scotland off the British teat. :)

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Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2015, 06:06:59 PM »
How about trying to find some feeling for the British then? Or don't you give a stuff about them either unless they belong to Scotland?


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While I feel nothing but warmth toward England and Wales (though ambivolent to the 'province' of Northern Ireland as a concept)
I have no feelings toward the political construct of the 'UK'.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2015, 06:47:45 PM »
But you can't have missed that Gonners meant 'a better Britain' to be a better place for the ordinary British people. Instead of engaging with that idea you shrugged your shoulders and turned your back, however 'warm' you may feel. Your nationalism seems to have caused you to forget what is important.

Anchorman

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Re: It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2015, 07:12:58 PM »
I don't accept the concept of a 'british people'.
All nations have the right to self determination.
As far as I'm concerned, britain is not a nation, but a construct.

"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."