It's the Corbyn and the National Anthem thread......

[jakswan]

I don't accept the concept of a 'british people'.
All nations have the right to self determination.
As far as I'm concerned, britain is not a nation, but a construct.

Yes and Scottish people have determined that the remain part of British nation.

[Gordon]

From my point of view, as a Scot, my main objection to 'God Save the Queen' isn't about the UK or Scottish Independence: it is because I think that monarchy is an archaic and undemocratic institution and that whatever nation state I end my days in (be it in an independent Scotland or in the current UK) I'd prefer that it was a republic.

[Rhiannon]

I don't accept the concept of a 'british people'.
All nations have the right to self determination.
As far as I'm concerned, britain is not a nation, but a construct.

All nations are political constructs. Scotland is no different. There's no divine instruction that makes it any different.

It makes no difference whether we call them British, Anglo-Saxons or Jedi knights; you are switching off your compassion for people purely because of the label given them. It's sad how your nationalism has changed the tone of your posts so much over the past couple of years.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't accept the concept of a 'british people'.
All nations have the right to self determination.
As far as I'm concerned, britain is not a nation, but a construct.

All nations are political constructs. Scotland is no different. There's no divine instruction that makes it any different.

It makes no difference whether we call them British, Anglo-Saxons or Jedi knights; you are switching off your compassion for people purely because of the label given them. It's sad how your nationalism has changed the tone of your posts so much over the past couple of years.

The problem I think is  self identity

In fighting for our own identity, we unintentionally or inevitably reject someone else's

 

simplistic,I know many Yes voters who don't think like that.

[Rhiannon]

As soon as we stop recognising people and see only nationalities we are in the shit.

[Nearly Sane]

And who is doing that?

[Anchorman]

As soon as we stop recognising people and see only nationalities we are in the shit.

-Agreed.
Which is why I support civic, rather than cultural or racial, nationalism.
Civic nationalism makes no distinction between race, sexual orientation, creed, ethnicity, etc, within a defined geographical area.
Scotland is such an area.
Whether or not the majority voted YES or NO last year, poll after poll over the last twenty years has shown that the majority of those living in Scotland regard themselves as Scots, with the numbers regardinng themselves as Brits diminishing over the last two decades.

[Rhiannon]

You don't 'give a stuff for Britain' and you don't recognise 'the concept of the British people'.

Good for you. You carry on 'not giving a stuff' and using Gonner's heartfelt wish that the lot of ordinary British people improves to make a narrow political point. Gonners talks about compassion in politics; your style of nationalism brings only the opposite.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jim,

Where does it stop! I have much the same feelings as you do towards Edinburgh as you do towards Westminster, should I start the GNP.

What about the wee fella in Cornwall, should he start the CNP.

You have a badge, you wear it on your sleeve, it is labelled Scotland, I have one, it is labelled Glasgow.

I suppose it is just frames of mind, I want to shake up Westminster you want to get rid of it.

How the world has shaped us, do we have free will, oh Nearlysane!! this is your department.

Gonnagle.

[Gordon]

For me, my main objection to 'God Save the Queen' is primarily because of my objections to the institution of the monarchy and to the overt pro-monarchy sentiment of this song. On that basis I'd imagine that people elsewhere in the UK (outwith Scotland) might share my views regarding both the monarchy and 'God Save the Queen' even if we differed as regards Scotland being an independent country.

I think the SNP were, and still are, very careful to avoid conflating independence and republicanism, since they aren't mutually exclusive and the current UK could, at some point, ditch the monarchy: although I suspect that this would be more likely in an independent Scotland.

If the UK national anthem was changed to 'How much is that doggie in the window' I'd quite happily sing along       

[Outrider]

I don't accept the concept of a 'british people'.
All nations have the right to self determination.
As far as I'm concerned, britain is not a nation, but a construct.

All nations are constructs - it's the imposition of that construct on the middle-East in the late 1800's and early 1900's over the heads of their pre-existing tribal delineations that's a major element of so much of the trouble we're reaping now.

O.

[Anchorman]

Dear Jim,

Where does it stop! I have much the same feelings as you do towards Edinburgh as you do towards Westminster, should I start the GNP.

-
Has Glasgow or Edinburgh expressed itheir wish for nationhood?
-

What about the wee fella in Cornwall, should he start the CNP.

-

There is a party dedicated to a devolved parliament for Kernow!
-


You have a badge, you wear it on your sleeve, it is labelled Scotland, I have one, it is labelled Glasgow.
-
No.
It is labelled 'Christian'....and I do not like the unChrist-like policies of Westminster, therefore I disdain it.
-

I suppose it is just frames of mind, I want to shake up Westminster you want to get rid of it.
-

Mo. if England and Wales and the rump province want to stay mired in the false traditions of an anachronistic pseudodemocratic mess, that's their choice.
-

How the world has shaped us, do we have free will, oh Nearlysane!! this is your department.

[Anchorman]

I don't accept the concept of a 'british people'.
All nations have the right to self determination.
As far as I'm concerned, britain is not a nation, but a construct.

All nations are constructs - it's the imposition of that construct on the middle-East in the late 1800's and early 1900's over the heads of their pre-existing tribal delineations that's a major element of so much of the trouble we're reaping now.

O.

-
Yep.....and guess which 'Land of Hope and Glory' was largely responsible.....this so-called 'great' Britain.

[Outrider]

I don't accept the concept of a 'british people'.
All nations have the right to self determination.
As far as I'm concerned, britain is not a nation, but a construct.

All nations are constructs - it's the imposition of that construct on the middle-East in the late 1800's and early 1900's over the heads of their pre-existing tribal delineations that's a major element of so much of the trouble we're reaping now.

O.

-
Yep.....and guess which 'Land of Hope and Glory' was largely responsible.....this so-called 'great' Britain.

Yes. A Britain of which Scotland was an integral and important part - it provided the nation with explorers and inventors and scientists and politicians and surveyors and soldiers. As someone with a foot in both camps, as it were, the rise of nationalism on both sides of the border - more dramatically in Scotland - saddens me. I don't think of myself as English or Scots or half-and-half, I think of myself as British.

O.

[ekim]

Civic nationalism makes no distinction between race, sexual orientation, creed, ethnicity, etc, within a defined geographical area.  Scotland is such an area.

Isn't the British Isles such an area?  There are probably more people of Scottish descent living in England than in Scotland.  There is no distinction made when they vote in British elections but they seem to have been excluded from the Scottish referendum.  Was this because they were not civic nationalists?

[Nearly Sane]

.

How the world has shaped us, do we have free will, oh Nearlysane!! this is your department.

Gonnagle.

As expressed previously 'Of Course we have free will, I have no choice but to accept it'. The question of free will is a philsophical indulgence, only of import in certain fairly abstruse discussions. For the everyday and discussions like this, it makes sense to assume it.

[Nearly Sane]

Civic nationalism makes no distinction between race, sexual orientation, creed, ethnicity, etc, within a defined geographical area.  Scotland is such an area.

Isn't the British Isles such an area?  There are probably more people of Scottish descent living in England than in Scotland.  There is no distinction made when they vote in British elections but they seem to have been excluded from the Scottish referendum.  Was this because they were not civic nationalists?

No, because in terms of self determination it's the breakaway gets the vote - unless you want Russians to have had a say in the Baltic states?

[Rhiannon]

When the next Indyref happens England and Wales will be given options too. It's no longer just about Scottush nationalism.

[Nearly Sane]

When the next Indyref happens England and Wales will be given options too. It's no longer just about Scottush nationalism.

That will depend on many factors - but they still won't have a vote about whether Scotland would be independent if there is an Indyref.

In many ways, it never was just about Scottish nationalism - it's about the problems of the arrangement of power. Donald Dewar was not a nationalisty but supported devlotion because of the anomalies in teh state with Scotland having separate legal and education systems amongst other things. To be fair to the Labour party in 97, they did try and address the issues with the idea of increased devolution for the regions but the problems there are different.

[ekim]

Civic nationalism makes no distinction between race, sexual orientation, creed, ethnicity, etc, within a defined geographical area.  Scotland is such an area.

Isn't the British Isles such an area?  There are probably more people of Scottish descent living in England than in Scotland.  There is no distinction made when they vote in British elections but they seem to have been excluded from the Scottish referendum.  Was this because they were not civic nationalists?

No, because in terms of self determination it's the breakaway gets the vote - unless you want Russians to have had a say in the Baltic states?

If Russians live in the Baltic states, wouldn't they have a say under this arrangement?  If Baltic state citizens live in Russia they wouldn't have a say.  If there were more Russians living in a particular Baltic state then there probably wouldn't be a breakaway or there might be a forceful attempt as in the splitting in eastern Ukraine.

[Nearly Sane]

If Russians live in the Baltic states, wouldn't they have a say under this arrangement?  If Baltic state citizens live in Russia they wouldn't have a say.  If there were more Russians living in a particular Baltic state then there probably wouldn't be a breakaway or there might be a forceful attempt as in the splitting in eastern Ukraine.

Which was the situation with the referendum - it was restricted to those living in Scotland.

[ekim]

If Russians live in the Baltic states, wouldn't they have a say under this arrangement?  If Baltic state citizens live in Russia they wouldn't have a say.  If there were more Russians living in a particular Baltic state then there probably wouldn't be a breakaway or there might be a forceful attempt as in the splitting in eastern Ukraine.

Which was the situation with the referendum - it was restricted to those living in Scotland.

I was trying to understand the motive.

[Nearly Sane]

I was trying to understand the motive.

The motive for having it the people living in the country? Because it's not about being Scottish , it's about living in Scotland.

[Outrider]

I was trying to understand the motive.

The motive for having it the people living in the country? Because it's not about being Scottish , it's about living in Scotland.

Which is strange. Should Scotland become independent, I'd be entitled (presumably) to dual-citizenship, it would have a profound effect on my life going forward.

I could decide to be a citizen of whatever the RoUK called itself based on residency, or I could decide to be a Scottish citizen based on parentage, or I could opt for dual nationality, if such a combination were permitted (I believe some aren't).

Yet I don't get a say...

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Which is strange. Should Scotland become independent, I'd be entitled (presumably) to dual-citizenship, it would have a profound effect on my life going forward.

I could decide to be a citizen of whatever the RoUK called itself based on residency, or I could decide to be a Scottish citizen based on parentage, or I could opt for dual nationality, if such a combination were permitted (I believe some aren't).

Yet I don't get a say...

O.

Because you dfon't live in Scotland and it isn't about nationality.