Googling For God

[Outrider]

About God? No, they aren't, but that's not the point, it's not an article about what Google can tell us about gods, it's an article about how what people are asking about gods is changing. It tells us about people, and their attitudes and interests.

O.

I wasn't talking "About God", O.  I was pointing out that having read the article I doubt whether anyone is any the wiser "about people, and their attitudes and interests", simply because we can't be sure of the purpose or motivation of the searchers.

We can't be sure, but we can draw inferences.

O.

[Hope]

A beneficial result from a benefactor with the capacity to give or not give - please explain how that doesn't constitute 'a reward'?

I suppose that you could regard a positive outcome in a relationship as a 'reward'.  I don't.

[Hope]

We can't be sure, but we can draw inferences.

Precisely, and in general, inferences are biased to one's existing understanding.  That is why I have tried to be neutral, rather than suggesting that the searches have been from Christians/religious people searching for new ways of expressing responses to the likes of Shaker and yourself.

[Outrider]

A beneficial result from a benefactor with the capacity to give or not give - please explain how that doesn't constitute 'a reward'?

I suppose that you could regard a positive outcome in a relationship as a 'reward'.  I don't.

A positive outcome is 'getting fitter because you've exercised' - it's purely dependent upon the activities.

A reward is given by someone - for this to be purely an outcome you'd have to be suggesting that we'd get to Heaven/paradise regardless of whether god existed or not, and I don't believe you're doing that. This isn't an inevitable result of a process, it's a bequeathment from a deity - that makes it a reward.

By contrast, the Calvinist idea that some are chosen and some are not, regardless of the activities they conduct in life makes it a gift, still not a result of the process.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Whether or not heaven is seen as a 'reward' or simply a fulfilment of relationship, there's no doubt that it's supposed to be a perfect state and definitely superior to this. 'Now we see through a glass darkly', remember.

That's not to say that Christians generally think this life is something to escape from. It's still seen as a gift to be inhabited and enjoyed. And many Christisns think heaven is glimpsed in this life - through the sacraments for example.

[Outrider]

We can't be sure, but we can draw inferences.

Precisely, and in general, inferences are biased to one's existing understanding.  That is why I have tried to be neutral, rather than suggesting that the searches have been from Christians/religious people searching for new ways of expressing responses to the likes of Shaker and yourself.

Given the ubiquity of Google, the trends in the searches show the general trends - they are no more nor less dominated by a particular group than the earlier searches against which they are compared.

Yes there can be bias in the interpretation, but that bias can be called out in the discussion, that's why we have them.

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

By that I presume you mean it is meant to be better? 

I suppose it depends on whether you regard life in Malibu as being better than life in Bondi.

I think you are being disingenuous in the extreme.

Rhiannon (an ex christian) is pretty honest - the concept of heaven in christianity isn't somehow no better or worse, just different, to life - nope the whole notion is that the afterlife with god is not just better but perfect. That's the whole point isn't it - that for christians they believe that they attain a perfect state after death with god, and that this goes on for ever.

Frankly if heaven was a bit like Bognor Regis rather than Skegness and that it's lack of perfection was endless I can't imagine there would be many holding out for it.

[Hope]

I think you are being disingenuous in the extreme.

Whereas I believe that those here who want to suggest that heaven is 'better' than earth are also being disingenuous.  It is why I used the two beach resorts I did as exemplars.  One can't really say that one is better than the other - they are different.

nope the whole notion is that the afterlife with god is not just better but perfect.

Precisely, its different

[BeRational]

I think you are being disingenuous in the extreme.

Whereas I believe that those here who want to suggest that heaven is 'better' than earth are also being disingenuous.  It is why I used the two beach resorts I did as exemplars.  One can't really say that one is better than the other - they are different.

nope the whole notion is that the afterlife with god is not just better but perfect.

Precisely, its different

Hell is depicted as different.

Do you want to end up there, if difference is all you seek?

[Rhiannon]

That really isn't true from a Christian point of view though Hope, and if it is one you hold then it it pretty unusual. I do agree that most Christians view this life as something to be treasured rather than hurried through or transcended, but no Christian would think that 'seeing through a glass darkly' is adequate compared to eternal bliss in the presence of God?

Incidentally, I don't agree with heaven as a reward either. It's more about fulfilment of relationship.

[Hope]

That's not to say that Christians generally think this life is something to escape from. It's still seen as a gift to be inhabited and enjoyed. And many Christisns think heaven is glimpsed in this life - through the sacraments for example.

There are also those Christians - and I'm one of them - who believe that heaven (aka the Kingdom of God) is here and now (and 'glimpsed' in everyday life, not just the sacraments), as well as in the future.

[Hope]

That really isn't true from a Christian point of view though Hope, and if it is one you hold then it it pretty unusual.

It's one I've heard throughout my life, Rhi., a pretty mainstream evangelical life.

Incidentally, I don't agree with heaven as a reward either. It's more about fulfilment of relationship.

I mader the same comment in a previous post, but perhaps a tad more clumsily.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think you are being disingenuous in the extreme.

Whereas I believe that those here who want to suggest that heaven is 'better' than earth are also being disingenuous.  It is why I used the two beach resorts I did as exemplars.  One can't really say that one is better than the other - they are different.

nope the whole notion is that the afterlife with god is not just better but perfect.

Precisely, its different

Hell is depicted as different.

Do you want to end up there, if difference is all you seek?

Exactly.

Sure earth, heaven and hell are portrayed as different, but more than that, heaven and hell are portrayed as extremes, heaven being perfect, paradise, hell being the opposite. And earth, well somewhere between the two extremes.

Hope you notion that they are just different, but in no way better or worse, I am afraid lacks any credibility.

[Hope]

Hell is depicted as different.

Do you want to end up there, if difference is all you seek?

OK, hell is different because it is existence without the presence of God.  AS I noted in a previous post, I believe that heaven (in the form of the Kingdom of God) is here, here and now.  As such, the relationship with God that I enjoy (and the fulfillment of which, as Rhi states in a recent post, is what heaven is all about) will be different in form after my physical death to that which I enjoy here on earth.  It won't be 'better'.

[Outrider]

Whereas I believe that those here who want to suggest that heaven is 'better' than earth are also being disingenuous.  It is why I used the two beach resorts I did as exemplars.  One can't really say that one is better than the other - they are different.

I don't know that anyone's questioning that this is your take on the situation, but it doesn't seem likely that even a significant majority feel the same way given our collective recollection of people's descriptions and depictions. Heaven is described as Paradise, some perfect afterlife, not merely a different place to Earthly life, but a better one.

O.

[Hope]

Hope you notion that they are just different, but in no way better or worse, I am afraid lacks any credibility.

It depends on what you believe the basis of existence 'within' heaven, hell and earth is.  If, as I and Rhi - and probably others here - believe, it is 'relationship',  then the relationship I have with God whilst I live here on earth will continue after my physical death but in a different way.  I wouldn't say that it will necessarily be 'better' because that immediately suggests that one's relationship with God prior to death is of a poorer quality.

[Hope]

Heaven is described as Paradise, some perfect afterlife, not merely a different place to Earthly life, but a better one.

O.

Except that the term translated as Paradise never bore that connotation, O.  It is an connotation that has been superimposed on the term in recent centuries -  (?)by the Roman Catholic Church to try to encourage the sale of indulgences.(?)

Note that (?) ... (?) is just a thought I've had whilst writing this post.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hell is depicted as different.

Do you want to end up there, if difference is all you seek?

OK, hell is different because it is existence without the presence of God.  AS I noted in a previous post, I believe that heaven (in the form of the Kingdom of God) is here, here and now.  As such, the relationship with God that I enjoy (and the fulfillment of which, as Rhi states in a recent post, is what heaven is all about) will be different in form after my physical death to that which I enjoy here on earth.  It won't be 'better'.

Now perhaps you will simply dismiss these statements as they are from a different 'branch' of christianity but I think these are pretty mainstream.

"heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness"

"The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ... Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ."

Note 'definitive happiness' 'perfect possession', 'perfectly incorporated'.

The clear implication is that heaven is perfect - so unless life on earth is also perfect (I don't think anyone including christians would claim it is) then heaven is better, because you can't get better than perfect.

[Outrider]

Heaven is described as Paradise, some perfect afterlife, not merely a different place to Earthly life, but a better one.

O.

Except that the term translated as Paradise never bore that connotation, O.  It is an connotation that has been superimposed on the term in recent centuries -  (?)by the Roman Catholic Church to try to encourage the sale of indulgences.(?)

Note that (?) ... (?) is just a thought I've had whilst writing this post.

I'm not saying that your interpretation of the intention is wrong, and that's not the point that's being made anyway. The point being made is that the message delivered in the main from Christianity to the populace at large is that Earthly life is something less than the paradise of the afterlife.

Your understanding is at odds with that being broadcast as the majority view, which we are presuming is an accurate depiction of the majority Christian view given that there is ample opportunity for them to correct it and they don't.

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hope you notion that they are just different, but in no way better or worse, I am afraid lacks any credibility.

It depends on what you believe the basis of existence 'within' heaven, hell and earth is.  If, as I and Rhi - and probably others here - believe, it is 'relationship',  then the relationship I have with God whilst I live here on earth will continue after my physical death but in a different way.  I wouldn't say that it will necessarily be 'better' because that immediately suggests that one's relationship with God prior to death is of a poorer quality.

Sure I understand the concept of a relationship, but again the notion that this is merely different rather than better isn't credible.

Even in the concept of a relationship, the relationship that someone has with god on earth is indirect, based on belief etc etc. The suggested relationship in heaven is entirely different - direct, based on knowledge - god being there too rather than something you have to believe in.

Kind of the difference between a Facebook friend that you interact with but have never met and might not even be a real person, and a real friendship with a real person, in person.

[ProfessorDavey]

Heaven is described as Paradise, some perfect afterlife, not merely a different place to Earthly life, but a better one.

O.

Except that the term translated as Paradise never bore that connotation, O.  It is an connotation that has been superimposed on the term in recent centuries -  (?)by the Roman Catholic Church to try to encourage the sale of indulgences.(?)

Note that (?) ... (?) is just a thought I've had whilst writing this post.

I'm not saying that your interpretation of the intention is wrong, and that's not the point that's being made anyway. The point being made is that the message delivered in the main from Christianity to the populace at large is that Earthly life is something less than the paradise of the afterlife.

Your understanding is at odds with that being broadcast as the majority view, which we are presuming is an accurate depiction of the majority Christian view given that there is ample opportunity for them to correct it and they don't.

O.

Exactly and I'm not convinced that Hope isn't merely arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't really believe that he thinks that heaven is no better than earth, merely different. I think he really thinks it is better (and different) but has headed down a debate track that he can't now get out of.

[Owlswing]

Another thread that has become a game of going round and round in circles trying to get Hope to accept that he is wrong - the only result of this game is that the thread vanishes up its own arse in a shower of orange pips - and being a total waste of time.

Page three of this thread has been as big a waste of time as Page Three of the Sun!

[Shaker]

Another thread that has become a game of going round and round in circles trying to get Hope to accept that he is wrong - the only result of this game is that the thread vanishes up its own arse in a shower of orange pips - and being a total waste of time.

Page three of this thread has been as big a waste of time as Page Three of the Sun!

... the only difference being that this thread, unlike Page Three, has just the one tit in it.

[Owlswing]

Another thread that has become a game of going round and round in circles trying to get Hope to accept that he is wrong - the only result of this game is that the thread vanishes up its own arse in a shower of orange pips - and being a total waste of time.

Page three of this thread has been as big a waste of time as Page Three of the Sun!

... the only difference being that this thread, unlike Page Three, has just the one tit in it.

ROFLMFAO!

[ProfessorDavey]

Another thread that has become a game of going round and round in circles trying to get Hope to accept that he is wrong - the only result of this game is that the thread vanishes up its own arse in a shower of orange pips - and being a total waste of time.

Page three of this thread has been as big a waste of time as Page Three of the Sun!

... the only difference being that this thread, unlike Page Three, has just the one tit in it.