'The Rapture'

[jakswan]

And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?

When he is ready.

He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?

Why should I?

Because he's late.

It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,

Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.

Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.

You were asked first.

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.

That is my reasoning. It may or may not be very good.

Now perhaps you will encourage JeremyP to provide details for why it seems to him that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.

So there is no scriptural support.

I don't know if Jeremy would be bothered to cite any part of the Bible because we know the tools of spin you use so that it reconciles with your theology.

[Sebastian Toe]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.

Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?
Is there some method behind your reasoning?

Also given that it is unlikely using your reasoning, when would be 'more likely'?

[jeremyp]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.

But he also said it would be before the end of "this generation".

Also, Paul seemed fairly convinced it wasn't going to be long.

Your Messiah is a busted flush, I'm afraid.

[jeremyp]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.

Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?

Because Jesus is dead and not coming back. It's unlikely in any time frame.

[jeremyp]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.

His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?

It always seemed rather odd that Jesus who is God did not know when he would be coming back.

Still, not knowing when an event is going to happen does not imply it is not going to happen soon. I don't know when I will next eat a pizza, but I bet it will be before 2,000 years are up.

[Alien]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.

His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?

No. Why do you ask?

[Alien]

And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?

When he is ready.

He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?

Why should I?

Because he's late.

It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,

Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.

Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.

You were asked first.

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.

That is my reasoning. It may or may not be very good.

Now perhaps you will encourage JeremyP to provide details for why it seems to him that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.

So there is no scriptural support.

For what? For Jesus' return being imminent at the time of the writing of the NT documents? Not that I know of. That was Jeremy's claim, not mine. I do accept that there is stuff which can be read that way, at least if you ignore the context, but the question is whether it is the right way.

I don't know if Jeremy would be bothered to cite any part of the Bible because we know the tools of spin you use so that it reconciles with your theology.

Waffle. Jeremy claimed, "It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent."

[Alien]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.

Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?
Is there some method behind your reasoning?

Only that Jesus said he did not know when he would return, that only the Father knew when. Not having any other pointers, I'm only guessing. I see no reason to think that it would be in the next 30 years, so would not like to claim that it will be within 30 years. That's all. I'm not claiming any insight.

Also given that it is unlikely using your reasoning, when would be 'more likely'?

Later than 30 years from now.

[Leonard James]

The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.

Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?

[Leonard James]

The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.

Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?

I wish they had ... they would have been more transparent.

Instead, they clad themselves with pseudo sanctity and "God's breath". I can understand the simple people of those days falling for it, but not modern educated types.

[Alien]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.

But he also said it would be before the end of "this generation".

Yes, the generation he was speaking of in that part of his discourse. So which one was that?

Also, Paul seemed fairly convinced it wasn't going to be long.

So will you be giving any specifics? Do you have any?

Your Messiah is a busted flush, I'm afraid.

A mere repeat of what you put in your previous post, "I'm afraid."

Look, if you want to make a serious point, please do go ahead and make it. Give some specifics.

[floo]

And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?

When he is ready.

He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?

Why should I?

Because he's late.

It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,

Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.

Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.

He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.

Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?

I wish they had ... they would have been more transparent.

Instead, they clad themselves with pseudo sanctity and "God's breath". I can understand the simple people of those days falling for it, but not modern educated types.

I think things aren't as simplistic as you are making them Len We find God crops up in philosophy, as an influence in art and music, cosmology and yeah, very much in antitheism because God is what they orbit around.

In terms of education British types specialise too soon to be of any use beyond their chosen specialism.

[Leonard James]

I think things aren't as simplistic as you are making them Len We find God crops up in philosophy, as an influence in art and music, cosmology and yeah, very much in antitheism because God is what they orbit around.

In terms of education British types specialise too soon to be of any use beyond their chosen specialism.

That's hardly surprising, Vladdy! God stories are romantic and appealing to the human mind, like all good works of art.

So keep the romance but recognise it for what it is ... fiction.

[Hope]

He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.

Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'. 

[Hope]

That's hardly surprising, Vladdy! God stories are romantic and appealing to the human mind, like all good works of art.

I'm not sure which version of the Bible you're reading Len to see the stories as romantic.  I'd put that at the opposite end of the literary spectrum to the contents of the Bible.

So keep the romance but recognise it for what it is ... fiction.

Since there is precious little romance in the material - see above - why should anyone regard it as fiction?  Is it because you regard it all as so possible as not to fit the idea that 'truth can be stranger than fiction'?   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think things aren't as simplistic as you are making them Len We find God crops up in philosophy, as an influence in art and music, cosmology and yeah, very much in antitheism because God is what they orbit around.

In terms of education British types specialise too soon to be of any use beyond their chosen specialism.

That's hardly surprising, Vladdy! God stories are romantic and appealing to the human mind, like all good works of art.

So keep the romance but recognise it for what it is ... fiction.

That's rubbish as your type frequently complain of the 'horror' content particularly of the OT but increasingly of the crucifixion too.

So you seem to be arguing that the Bible is a)cosy and B) horrific simultaneously.

[Hope]

But he also said it would be before the end of "this generation".

In this you are correct, jeremy.  So, let's delve a bit and see what the word 'generation' that is used in the Greek actually meant.  It could mean those people who were born within a 20-25 year period - in the way that English tends to use the term; however, it could also be used to refer to a race (in this case the Jews) or a family - a whole string of 'generations'.

Also, Paul seemed fairly convinced it wasn't going to be long.

Its worth rereading what he said, jeremy.  He didn't state that it wasn't going to be long, but encouraged the believers to live AS IF it wasn't going to be long.  In other words, it could have been imminent (ie within the lifetime of those Jesus had taught and lived amongst) but it might not - so live as if it was going to be.  Think, for instance, of the story in Matthew 25 of the ten young women who went out to greet the bridegroom; 5 of them took extra oil lest he was delayed, and 5 didn't. 

Your Messiah is a busted flush, I'm afraid.

I've yet to see any evidence for this oft-repeated sentiment, jeremy.  Do you have any.

[jakswan]

As expected, spin, different translations and context so that it means not what it says but what you want it to mean.

[jakswan]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.

Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?
Is there some method behind your reasoning?

Only that Jesus said he did not know when he would return, that only the Father knew when. Not having any other pointers, I'm only guessing. I see no reason to think that it would be in the next 30 years, so would not like to claim that it will be within 30 years. That's all. I'm not claiming any insight.

Also given that it is unlikely using your reasoning, when would be 'more likely'?

Later than 30 years from now.

I thought Jesus was his own father?

[Alien]

It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.

His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?

It always seemed rather odd that Jesus who is God did not know when he would be coming back.

Important point that, but then we would be getting onto the nature(s) of Jesus if we went down that route. If you would like to pursue it, perhaps a separate thread would be better.

Still, not knowing when an event is going to happen does not imply it is not going to happen soon.

But that was not what you wrote. You said the NT says it was imminent, not that it did not say it was not far off.

I don't know when I will next eat a pizza, but I bet it will be before 2,000 years are up.

So what. I don't know when we will run out of oil, but I don't know when. Why do you think your pizza analogy is any more relevant?

[Alien]

The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.

OK, demonstrate this is correct rather than Len just making an offhand, unsubstantiatable comment on a Tuesday morning.

[Alien]

The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.

Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?

I wish they had ... they would have been more transparent.

Instead, they clad themselves with pseudo sanctity and "God's breath". I can understand the simple people of those days falling for it, but not modern educated types.

Is that meant to be an argument for something?

[Alien]

...Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.

Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.

He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.

Which generation was he referring to? Where are you quoting from, Floo?