Volkswagen facing multiple US probes

[Rhiannon]

Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2.   Is this all because of diesel?

I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.

But diesels will still be forced off the road.

[jeremyp]

Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2.   Is this all because of diesel?

I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.

But diesels will still be forced off the road.

Do you think this story is going to trigger anti-diesel hysteria? If we look at it rationally, one manufacturer has been caught cheating on the US regulations. In rational terms, that shouldn't provoke general anti-diesel feelings. Of course, "rational" doesn't always feature high on the Daily Fail's list of priorities.

[jeremyp]

I'm reminded of a poem

Pollution, all around.
Sometimes up,
sometimes down.
But always around.
Pollution are you coming to my town?
Or am I coming to yours?
Ha! We're on different buses, pollution,
but we're both using petrol

-- (P)Rick

[Udayana]

hmmm...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/article4566523.ece

Road tests carried out by the same group that exposed Volkswagen’s rigging of diesel emissions tests have shown that BMW’s X3 xDrive 20d emits the air pollutant nitrogen oxide at a level 11 times higher than the legal European limit, a German car magazine reported today.
“All measured data suggest that this is not a VW-specific issue,” Peter Mock, the Europe managing director at International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), told the publication, Auto Bild.
BMW vehemently denied manipulating or rigging diesel emissions tests and said it was going to ask for an immediate explanation from the ICCT of the test it had carried out on the X3 model.
The report nevertheless spooked investors and caused BMW shares to fall 9.7 per cent to €72.05 in late morning trading on the Frankfurt stock exchange.
In a double blow for the German car industry, transport minister Alexander Dobrindt confirmed what had been long suspected – that the software “defeat devices” built into VW diesel cars to fiddle US emissions tests had also been installed in European models.
“We have been informed that also in Europe, vehicles with 1.6 and 2.0 litre diesel engines are affected by the manipulations that are being talked about,” Mr Dobrindt said, adding that it was unclear how many vehicles in Europe were affected.

As VW stated 11m vehicles were affected, far greater than the number of VW diesel cars sold in the USA, many of the affected cars are likely to be in Europe.

[Rhiannon]

Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2.   Is this all because of diesel?

I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.

But diesels will still be forced off the road.

Do you think this story is going to trigger anti-diesel hysteria? If we look at it rationally, one manufacturer has been caught cheating on the US regulations. In rational terms, that shouldn't provoke general anti-diesel feelings. Of course, "rational" doesn't always feature high on the Daily Fail's list of priorities.

No, I think the hysteria had already set in before this. Just do a google.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/diesel-cars-could-be-banned-british-city-centres-after-supreme-court-ruling-1499044

There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.

[Rhiannon]

I'm reminded of a poem

Pollution, all around.
Sometimes up,
sometimes down.
But always around.
Pollution are you coming to my town?
Or am I coming to yours?
Ha! We're on different buses, pollution,
but we're both using petrol

-- (P)Rick

 

[jeremyp]

There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.

I think this bears repeating. The cost of building a car is an enormous quantity of energy. Volkswagen (ahem) estimated it is about one third of the fuel it will use in its life time. The now defunct government policy of scrapping old “uneconomic” cars probably had the reverse effect that they wanted since the energy cost of all the new cars to replace them completely outweighed the savings.

[Rhiannon]

There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.

I think this bears repeating. The cost of building a car is an enormous quantity of energy. Volkswagen (ahem) estimated it is about one third of the fuel it will use in its life time. The now defunct government policy of scrapping old “uneconomic” cars probably had the reverse effect that they wanted since the energy cost of all the new cars to replace them completely outweighed the savings.

Agree so much.

[wigginhall]

Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2.   Is this all because of diesel?

I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.

I don't know their research methods, but they seem to be saying that previously the effects of diesel had been  underestimated.   Actually, the total for London from pollution is given as nearly 10, 000, and for the UK 60, 000 (not just N02). 

People seem to be all over the place about it - I noticed that Boris at first was indignant at the idea that Oxford St was the most polluted street in the world, but now he is talking of 'diesel scrappage', whatever that means.  He also said that he is sorry for people who were 'seduced into buying diesel'.   How were they seduced?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-9500-people-die-each-year-in-london-because-of-air-pollution-study

[Shaker]

Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.

I wish they were right, but they won't be.

The reason they won't be is that there isn't a known alternative that actually works.

I wasn't aware we'd even attempted let alone exhausted all the alternatives.

[jeremyp]

Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.

I wish they were right, but they won't be.

The reason they won't be is that there isn't a known alternative that actually works.

I wasn't aware we'd even attempted let alone exhausted all the alternatives.

Well we've (that is people have) tried various styles of command economy, and they don't seem to work.

[Udayana]

There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.

I think this bears repeating. The cost of building a car is an enormous quantity of energy. Volkswagen (ahem) estimated it is about one third of the fuel it will use in its life time. The now defunct government policy of scrapping old “uneconomic” cars probably had the reverse effect that they wanted since the energy cost of all the new cars to replace them completely outweighed the savings.

It' not a question of scrapping these cars though is it? The software will need to be patched to keep the car in modes which conform to the emissions standards. Owners should be compensated for the failure to meet the claimed performance - ultimately reflected in the resale value of the car. Tax rates should be modified to reflect the actual emissions if they cannot meet their specification.

[floo]

I suspect other car firms are also involved in this sort of scam!

[jeremyp]

I suspect other car firms are also involved in this sort of scam!

Volkswagen isn't even the first, there is a long history of scamming the system.

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/10/volkswagens-emissions-cheating-scandal-has-a-long-complicated-history/

[bluehillside Retd.]

Good joke on HIGNFY the other night:

Following the VW emissions scandal, it's been reported that their chief engineer has killed himself...

...he didn't mean to, he was just parking his car in his garage last night. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Good joke on HIGNFY the other night:

Following the VW emissions scandal, it's been reported that their chief engineer has killed himself...

...he didn't mean to, he was just parking his car in his garage last night.

Apparently whoever cracked that joke on HIGNFY was due to go on stage but couldn't because they felt a little funny.........their manager told them to get on quick before it wore off.

[Jack Knave]

Good joke on HIGNFY the other night:

Following the VW emissions scandal, it's been reported that their chief engineer has killed himself...

...he didn't mean to, he was just parking his car in his garage last night.

That's a real choker!!!

[Jack Knave]

I hope you lot have heard that the EU's Commission isn't going to do an investigation into VW even though by cheating they have killed people. The EU has nothing to do with helping the people and ensuring the rule of law and everything about lining their pockets, keeping power for their elites and big business. And of course our Fuhrer Merkel has ensured all this will be kept at a low ebb.

[jeremyp]

VW ... by cheating they have killed people.

Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.

 

[Jack Knave]

VW ... by cheating they have killed people.

Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.

You never were the sharpest tool in the box, were you!

Work it out Jeremy, why were there emission limits in the first place?

[jeremyp]

VW ... by cheating they have killed people.

Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.

You never were the sharpest tool in the box, were you!

Right, so actually you are bullshitting. You don't know.

The questions you need to answer are

1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?

I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).

[Jack Knave]

VW ... by cheating they have killed people.

Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.

You never were the sharpest tool in the box, were you!

Right, so actually you are bullshitting. You don't know.

The questions you need to answer are

1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?

I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).

For 1-3 you have to ask yourself why are they going to have their asses sued right off in the US? As for the US requirements I have heard that the emissions during normal use are 35 to 40 higher than legally allowable.

As for 4, and for my question in my last post, the whole point of keeping emission down is because they cause health problems and what does bad health problems lead to......?

[jeremyp]

The questions you need to answer are

1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?

I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).

For 1-3 you have to ask yourself why are they going to have their asses sued right off in the US?

We know why they are going to be sued, they sold cars under false pretences.

As for the US requirements I have heard that the emissions during normal use are 35 to 40 higher than legally allowable.

Emissions of what though? And what percentage do they increase the concentration of said emissions in the atmosphere?

As for 4, and for my question in my last post, the whole point of keeping emission down is because they cause health problems and what does bad health problems lead to......?

You made a specific accusation that Volkswagen were killing people, by their cheating. Now you seem to be offering only vague connections.

The number of diesel Volkswagen cars in the USA is minuscule. If the emissions was 45% higher from them than expected, it is still a drop in the ocean compared to all the articulated lorries.

[Jack Knave]

The questions you need to answer are

1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?

I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).

For 1-3 you have to ask yourself why are they going to have their asses sued right off in the US?

We know why they are going to be sued, they sold cars under false pretences.

As for the US requirements I have heard that the emissions during normal use are 35 to 40 higher than legally allowable.

Emissions of what though? And what percentage do they increase the concentration of said emissions in the atmosphere?

As for 4, and for my question in my last post, the whole point of keeping emission down is because they cause health problems and what does bad health problems lead to......?

You made a specific accusation that Volkswagen were killing people, by their cheating. Now you seem to be offering only vague connections.

The number of diesel Volkswagen cars in the USA is minuscule. If the emissions was 45% higher from them than expected, it is still a drop in the ocean compared to all the articulated lorries.

I am offering here the logic of the argument not details which there is no need here to proffer. So further with this, the levels of pollutants rise in cities like London where there are relatively narrow streets where they become trapped and concentrated. And I repeat the law asks for these restrictions because these emissions are conducive to poor health which in turn shortens lives.

[jeremyp]

I am offering here the logic of the argument not details which there is no need here to proffer.

You are not offering logic at all. Volkswagen are not going to have a hefty fine because they killed anybody, they will be fined because they cheated. The are not going to be sued because they killed anybody, they are going to be sued for misrepresenting their product.

Give me some facts. Give me a peer reviewed study with an estimate of the number of people they have killed by this measure.