Volkswagen facing multiple US probes

[Jack Knave]

I am offering here the logic of the argument not details which there is no need here to proffer.

You are not offering logic at all. Volkswagen are not going to have a hefty fine because they killed anybody, they will be fined because they cheated. The are not going to be sued because they killed anybody, they are going to be sued for misrepresenting their product.

Give me some facts. Give me a peer reviewed study with an estimate of the number of people they have killed by this measure.

So are you saying that nobody will sue them for inflicting or imposing them or their city to ill health because of their car emissions? And remember ill health leads to a shortened lifespan and reduced quality of life. As they say watch this space, not this space per se, but the unrolling of events.

[Rhiannon]

Got a letter today to say my Skoda will be recalled to have some gizmo fitted (once they've invented it) because its engine is a VW.

[jeremyp]

So are you saying that nobody will sue them for inflicting or imposing them or their city to ill health

You claimed that they killed people, not just made them ill. Please stop moving the goal posts.

I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to successfully sue Volswagen for causing deaths in this instance because Volkswagen can say "well what about all those 18 wheelers pumping out emissions at a rate much higher than all our diesel cars.

[Rhiannon]

Agree. They are much more likely to be sued by owners who lose out financially.

[Jack Knave]

So are you saying that nobody will sue them for inflicting or imposing them or their city to ill health

You claimed that they killed people, not just made them ill. Please stop moving the goal posts.

I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to successfully sue Volswagen for causing deaths in this instance because Volkswagen can say "well what about all those 18 wheelers pumping out emissions at a rate much higher than all our diesel cars.

So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?

[Rhiannon]

You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.

[Outrider]

You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.

Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.

O.

[Rhiannon]

You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.

Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.

O.

How could they do that? They'd need to be able to quantify it.

[Outrider]

You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.

Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.

O.

How could they do that? They'd need to be able to quantify it.

No, they just need to show that the particulates that are being produced in excess of what they originally claimed have been linked with health problems. Once they've done that Volkswagen will settle out of court to avoid having it dragged through the public eye that they are trying to push down the dollar value of the lives they've affected.

Proving the link is easy, and therefore they know they'll lose. They therefore won't go to court - what settlement they come to out of the public eye, of course, will be mitigated by them pleading to the various governments that the hit they take will affect jobs and productivity... and so the greasy wheel keeps on slipping and sliding along

O.

[Jack Knave]

You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.

Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.

O.

Exactly. And places like central London etc. where the traffic is heavy in relatively enclosed areas, or where the air circulation is poor, and where they have monitoring units that provide details of the levels of pollutants then there may be a good case for authorities to make a claim.

On Newsnight last night there was a piece on this where evidence is indicating that particulates from car fumes are getting into peoples brains, and for children this means a slowing down of the neuron firing rate making them slow to learn etc.

[jeremyp]

So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?

Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?

No.

[jeremyp]

No, they just need to show that the particulates that are being produced in excess of what they originally claimed have been linked with health problems.

Nope. If you are claiming that Volkswagen are causing the deaths, you have to prove it was them and not any of the other many many diesel engines on the road.

Proving the link is easy, and therefore they know they'll lose.

It clearly isn't, otherwise Jack the Knave would have produced the evidence.

[Jack Knave]

So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?

Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?

No.

As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.

[Nearly Sane]

So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?

Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?

No.

As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.

So on you go, prove your claim, statistically?

[jeremyp]

So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?

Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?

No.

As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.

Show me the statistics then.

[Jack Knave]

So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?

Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?

No.

As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.

Show me the statistics then.

I'll leave that to those, scientists and researchers etc. who have been talking about this in the media.

[jeremyp]

I'll leave that to those, scientists and researchers etc. who have been talking about this in the media.

If they've been talking about it in the media, it shouldn't be too hard for you to provide a link.

[Outrider]

No, they just need to show that the particulates that are being produced in excess of what they originally claimed have been linked with health problems.

Nope. If you are claiming that Volkswagen are causing the deaths, you have to prove it was them and not any of the other many many diesel engines on the road.

Proving the link is easy, and therefore they know they'll lose.

It clearly isn't, otherwise Jack the Knave would have produced the evidence.

This is my point - in the media they will claim that Volkswagen have helped to kill people, but in court they will simply show that they have exceeded the limits that were put in place for - amongst other reasons - health benefits. The evidence that particulates cause health problems is already well-established.

O.

[Rhiannon]

I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. 

[Jack Knave]

I'll leave that to those, scientists and researchers etc. who have been talking about this in the media.

If they've been talking about it in the media, it shouldn't be too hard for you to provide a link.

What from the TV?

[Jack Knave]

I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. 

Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.

[Rhiannon]

I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. 

Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.

I won't have a bloody car, will I?

[Jack Knave]

I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. 

Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.

I won't have a bloody car, will I?

I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...

[Rhiannon]

I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. 

Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.

I won't have a bloody car, will I?

I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...

I've been notified about getting it 'fixed', which is no problem - I just want to be able to use it in the meantime.

I think it will depend on whether our government implements EU law or does its own thing.

[Rhiannon]

I'm not overly fussed about my road tax and my intention is to keep it for as long as possible, so resale value doesn't matter. But having finally found a car I feel comfortable driving I will be really cross if I have to lose it. I can't afford to replace it.