Searching for God (2)

[Leonard James]

Life is good ... even at my age! 

[Samuel]

You don't need evidence, just some humility.

Believing something exists for which there is no evidence serves no purpose for me, but I accept that some other people feel the necessity.

It's not so much a necessity; it's our experience. The humility is in accepting you are experiencing it subjectively and also in accepting it isn't right for everyone.

That only tends to work well outside of monotheism, though. If you believe that there's just the one deity, then it follows that there's only one set of rules and only one way of being right. Anything and everything else is at the very best error - forgivable error possibly if you're a bit of a bleeding heart wishy-washy flip-flop type but error all the same - and at worst explicit heresy. And I'm sure we know how heretics have always and in some cases still are treated. Monotheism is the problem. It has built into it by definition an innate tendency towards rigid absolutism and dogmatism. It's not as though anybody really needs evidence of this but just in case, take a look at some of the central statements made by the three Abrahamic religions. I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods before me. There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. I am the way, the truth and the life; nobody comes to the Father but through me. In each case the message is exactly the same: none of that, this and this only.

This is nothing that the ever-prescient David Hume didn't say two and a half centuries ago, but it's true nevertheless.

Indeed. In many ways monotheism is the worst kind of primitive, insular and tribal affair. I'd like to think that it has at least focused the collective intent and action of communities to be able to achieve great things, but then the ancient Roman bureaucracy managed that with a positively accommodating stance on different religions. There is something to be said for the diversity of paganism, where the expression of 'god' is seen in a multiplicity of ways. The simple lack of definition that creates leaves useful room for the consideration of the beliefs and experiences of others. I think it also has the inherent potential to place the emphasis on similarities, rather than differences. So that one 'deity' can be recognised in the description of another. Whilst the dogma of monotheism ultimately only serves to establish those who exist outside the community.

Having said all that I remain sympathetic to the individual Christians I know. In the end they are doing their best to live a good life, in kindness and consideration. I'm married to one for goodness sake. And she is lovely.

[Rhiannon]

Absolutely, Len...this moment's all we have, so we need to be present with it.

[Leonard James]

Having said all that I remain sympathetic to the individual Christians I know. In the end they are doing their best to live a good life, in kindness and consideration. I'm married to one for goodness sake. And she is lovely.

Yes, there are good people everywhere, in spite of religion.

[Rhiannon]

You don't need evidence, just some humility.

Believing something exists for which there is no evidence serves no purpose for me, but I accept that some other people feel the necessity.

It's not so much a necessity; it's our experience. The humility is in accepting you are experiencing it subjectively and also in accepting it isn't right for everyone.

That only tends to work well outside of monotheism, though. If you believe that there's just the one deity, then it follows that there's only one set of rules and only one way of being right. Anything and everything else is at the very best error - forgivable error possibly if you're a bit of a bleeding heart wishy-washy flip-flop type but error all the same - and at worst explicit heresy. And I'm sure we know how heretics have always and in some cases still are treated. Monotheism is the problem. It has built into it by definition an innate tendency towards rigid absolutism and dogmatism. It's not as though anybody really needs evidence of this but just in case, take a look at some of the central statements made by the three Abrahamic religions. I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods before me. There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. I am the way, the truth and the life; nobody comes to the Father but through me. In each case the message is exactly the same: none of that, this and this only.

This is nothing that the ever-prescient David Hume didn't say two and a half centuries ago, but it's true nevertheless.

Indeed. In many ways monotheism is the worst kind of primitive, insular and tribal affair. I'd like to think that it has at least focused the collective intent and action of communities to be able to achieve great things, but then the ancient Roman bureaucracy managed that with a positively accommodating stance on different religions. There is something to be said for the diversity of paganism, where the expression of 'god' is seen in a multiplicity of ways. The simple lack of definition that creates leaves useful room for the consideration of the beliefs and experiences of others. I think it also has the inherent potential to place the emphasis on similarities, rather than differences. So that one 'deity' can be recognised in the description of another. Whilst the dogma of monotheism ultimately only serves to establish those who exist outside the community.

Having said all that I remain sympathetic to the individual Christians I know. In the end they are doing their best to live a good life, in kindness and consideration. I'm married to one for goodness sake. And she is lovely.

We've talked about labels before, Sam, potentially they divide more than they bind because they flag up what I am and you are not rather than our common humanity. And they are all just stories we tell ourselves and give names to - I'm a pagan, she's a Christian, he likes Daft Punk.

But yes, most Christians I know are generally nice, generous and more tolerant than people would believe (my mum is a Christian and worked voluntarily in gay rights and aids awareness alongside her business interests for several years). Some Christians are quite exceptional, like my old parish priest who ministered 24/7 and who refused to draw a salary.

[Rhiannon]

Having said all that I remain sympathetic to the individual Christians I know. In the end they are doing their best to live a good life, in kindness and consideration. I'm married to one for goodness sake. And she is lovely.

Yes, there are good people everywhere, in spite of religion.

Or because of, Len. I don't think there can be any doubt that some people turn their lives around when they convert to a particular faith position.

[Leonard James]

Having said all that I remain sympathetic to the individual Christians I know. In the end they are doing their best to live a good life, in kindness and consideration. I'm married to one for goodness sake. And she is lovely.

Yes, there are good people everywhere, in spite of religion.

Or because of, Len. I don't think there can be any doubt that some people turn their lives around when they convert to a particular faith position.

Of course! There's good and bad in everything ... even me! 

[Samuel]

Having said all that I remain sympathetic to the individual Christians I know. In the end they are doing their best to live a good life, in kindness and consideration. I'm married to one for goodness sake. And she is lovely.

Yes, there are good people everywhere, in spite of religion.

Or because of, Len. I don't think there can be any doubt that some people turn their lives around when they convert to a particular faith position.

And that's just it... labels are a double edged sword. They help us make sense of the world and our selves often in constructive ways but are divisive by their very nature. They should come with a warning ' handle with care'

p.s. I LOVE Daft Punk!

[Leonard James]

p.s. I LOVE Daft Punk!

I am happy to say I have no idea what or who that is ... but please leave me in my ignorance! 

[Rhiannon]

Having said all that I remain sympathetic to the individual Christians I know. In the end they are doing their best to live a good life, in kindness and consideration. I'm married to one for goodness sake. And she is lovely.

Yes, there are good people everywhere, in spite of religion.

Or because of, Len. I don't think there can be any doubt that some people turn their lives around when they convert to a particular faith position.

And that's just it... labels are a double edged sword. They help us make sense of the world and our selves often in constructive ways but are divisive by their very nature. They should come with a warning ' handle with care'

p.s. I LOVE Daft Punk!

 

[Owlswing]

We've talked about labels before, Sam, potentially they divide more than they bind because they flag up what I am and you are not rather than our common humanity. And they are all just stories we tell ourselves and give names to - I'm a pagan, she's a Christian, he likes Daft Punk.

But yes, most Christians I know are generally nice, generous and more tolerant than people would believe (my mum is a Christian and worked voluntarily in gay rights and aids awareness alongside her business interests for several years). Some Christians are quite exceptional, like my old parish priest who ministered 24/7 and who refused to draw a salary.

Talking of parish priests, a friend of mine, a witch, was employed as a funeral director. Sitting in the office of the local Crem waiting for the arrival of a client, the door opened and the Catholic priest attached to the Crem entered and closed the door behind him.

"Do you mind if I ask you a very personal question?" he said.

"No. As long as you doin't mind a personal answer, if it is warrented!"

"You are one of the pointy hat brigade aren't you?"

"Yes!"

"Hmm. I thought so." said the priest and left the offoce.

The subject was never mentioned again and the pair remained firm friends and drinking buddies until the lady's death a couple of years ago.