Scared of being questioned!

[Hope]

I assume that you are trying to tell me that other people like yourself have felt that they have had to explain to us why such natural disasters are important for our continued existence.  If that is the case, I'd disagree with your claim. 

No I have never tried to explain why natural disasters are important for our continued existence.

Oddly enough I didn't say that you had; I said that perhaps that you felt as if you ought to.

I was taught at school that natural 'disasters' where often related to the earth 'regenerating' itself.  For instance, earthquakes are related to plate movements that can themselves be related to the creation of new material - either underground or under the sea. 

I was never taught that.

I'm sorry to hear that.  You can easily read up on the same thing on the 'net.

So if you saw a two year old boy drowning would you do nothing, shrug your shoulders and walk away?

This shows the hypocrisy of your viewpoint.  If the reports I've been hearing on the news recently are to be believed, some half a million people have entered Europe 'illegally' since the beginning of this year - and perhaps as many as a further 30% of that number have died in the attempt.  You question whether a deity who is called a God of love can shrug its shoulders and walk away (something that I don't believe that he has done, by the way) yet ignore that fact that for much of the last 9 months this is exactly what the very thing you believe can rescue us - humanity itself - has been doing.  Is it not humanity who have been packing these would be migrants into overcrowded  boats, taking in some cases 4-figure sums of money to do so?

Are you really so callous that you couldn't care less about those who we have heard about on a daily basis over the summer, let alone the 4+ million who have fled Syria to refugee camps in neighbouring countries over the last 4 or 5 years.

Where has humanity been in any serious attempts to resolve the situation since it started 5 years ago.  Apart from bombings and drone strikes, has anything of any real value been done?

If you were to I would suggest you were not loving but evil and culpable for his death, since you defined god as everywhere I fail to see how it escapes culpability.

Another example of your hypocrisy.  You want a deity who will act on and in situations which you regard as unacceptable, yet you refuse to allow that he can act on and in situations where his involvement would be irrational, illogical and supernatural. 

[Hope]

I keep seeing this bullshit crop up - playing fast and loose with what free will is.

And the point of that little rant was ... ?

[Hope]

In what way?

You often make it very clear by the context of such posts that you have a relative within the hierarchy of the church whose approach to things, such as the matter of conversion, is more acceptable to you than that of some other Christians' approach.  As I think Jim pointed out to you once, that relative's approach to said topic is probably no different to that of myself, Jim or other Christians here and in the mainstream of Christianity.

[Andy]

I keep seeing this bullshit crop up - playing fast and loose with what free will is.

And the point of that little rant was ... ?

Try reading the rest and then respond, preferably this time without trying to poison the well.

[Hope]

Try reading the rest...

I did that when I first saw the post, Andy, and that is why I asked the question I did.

[jakswan]

Oddly enough I didn't say that you had; I said that perhaps that you felt as if you ought to.

It is odd since you said:-

earthquakes, floods, other forms of natural disaster, illness, etc, and the suffering that goes with them - because some of these are natural events which we, as a human race, rely on for our continued existence,

I'm sorry to hear that.  You can easily read up on the same thing on the 'net.

I don't think my education was at that low a level.

This shows the hypocrisy of your viewpoint.  If the reports I've been hearing on the news recently are to be believed, some half a million people have entered Europe 'illegally' since the beginning of this year - and perhaps as many as a further 30% of that number have died in the attempt.  You question whether a deity who is called a God of love can shrug its shoulders and walk away (something that I don't believe that he has done, by the way) yet ignore that fact that for much of the last 9 months this is exactly what the very thing you believe can rescue us - humanity itself - has been doing.  Is it not humanity who have been packing these would be migrants into overcrowded  boats, taking in some cases 4-figure sums of money to do so?

I don't think you answered my question 'So if you saw a two year old boy drowning would you do nothing, shrug your shoulders and walk away?'

Are you really so callous that you couldn't care less about those who we have heard about on a daily basis over the summer, let alone the 4+ million who have fled Syria to refugee camps in neighbouring countries over the last 4 or 5 years.

I do care about these people and you pathetic little attempt to suggest otherwise is noted.

Where has humanity been in any serious attempts to resolve the situation since it started 5 years ago.  Apart from bombings and drone strikes, has anything of any real value been done?

Yes. yes, look over there, hysterical hand waving, pointing of fingers and much rubbing of hands, still doesn't address why, when the little 2 year old boy was drowning your god did nothing to save him.

Another example of your hypocrisy.  You want a deity who will act on and in situations which you regard as unacceptable, yet you refuse to allow that he can act on and in situations where his involvement would be irrational, illogical and supernatural.

Bless, no Hoppity I just want him to save a two year old boy from drowning, if this god of yours or couldn't or wouldn't then it is either does not exist or is not all powerful and loving.

[Gordon]

If the reports I've been hearing on the news recently are to be believed, some half a million people have entered Europe 'illegally' since the beginning of this year - and perhaps as many as a further 30% of that number have died in the attempt.  You question whether a deity who is called a God of love can shrug its shoulders and walk away (something that I don't believe that he has done, by the way) yet ignore that fact that for much of the last 9 months this is exactly what the very thing you believe can rescue us - humanity itself - has been doing.  Is it not humanity who have been packing these would be migrants into overcrowded  boats, taking in some cases 4-figure sums of money to do so?

This is another of your bizarre tu quoque like arguments: because people bugger things up then we can excuse your God of doing the same despite your God, presumably, having the capacity to do better than people. Pull the other one! 

Are you really so callous that you couldn't care less about those who we have heard about on a daily basis over the summer, let alone the 4+ million who have fled Syria to refugee camps in neighbouring countries over the last 4 or 5 years.

Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.

Where has humanity been in any serious attempts to resolve the situation since it started 5 years ago.  Apart from bombings and drone strikes, has anything of any real value been done?

By the same token, where has your God been?

You want a deity who will act on and in situations which you regard as unacceptable, yet you refuse to allow that he can act on and in situations where his involvement would be irrational, illogical and supernatural.

What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.   

[Andy]

Try reading the rest...

I did that when I first saw the post, Andy, and that is why I asked the question I did.

I thought it was obvious. You said god can't override someone's  choice to act. I'm saying that is bollocks based on other beliefs.

[Hope]

Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.

By the same token, where has your God been?

I can think of a number of Christian organisations who have been working in the refugee camps and behind the political scenes to try to bring people together in the region.

What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.

Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.

[Hope]

I thought it was obvious. You said god can't override someone's  choice to act.

I didn't say that he 'can't override': what I said is that he accepts that he can't - in other words, he chooses to allow their free choices to stand.

[Hope]

I don't think you answered my question 'So if you saw a two year old boy drowning would you do nothing, shrug your shoulders and walk away?'

I didn't botyer answering it because it clearly wasn't aimed at me, but was simply another way of dissing God and Christianity.  When you appreciate how much work a number of Christian organisatons have put into the region over the years, I don't thik you would be so glib.

Thankfully, I've never been in the particular situation you posited, but I've been in comparable ones and helped as best I could.

... pathetic little attempt to suggest otherwise is noted.

See above

Yes. yes, look over there, hysterical hand waving, pointing of fingers and much rubbing of hands, still doesn't address why, when the little 2 year old boy was drowning your god did nothing to save him.

We don't actually know whether there were attempts to save him and his brother.  For instance, did anyone try to talk his parents out of paying the smugglers, or out of getting into the boat?  Did anyone offer a safer way to safety?  You have no idea what had happened in the preceding days, weeks, months.

Bless, no Hoppity I just want him to save a two year old boy from drowning, if this god of yours or couldn't or wouldn't then it is either does not exist or is not all powerful and loving.

So, you want a God who does your will, and who works in ways that you feel are appropriate.  As I say - we simply don't know what efforts had already been made to save that boy.

Remember too, that if God had intervened to save him, would you actually have known?  How many other children have been saved from drowning by God's intervention?

[Andy]

I thought it was obvious. You said god can't override someone's  choice to act.

I didn't say that he 'can't override':

Or god accepts that s/he can't override the free will that individuals and groups choose to practice regardless of its consequences to other humans.  Is that what you would rather see?

There, in black and white.

what I said is that he accepts that he can't - in other words, he chooses to allow their free choices to stand.

No, that's the sound of peddles whizzing in reverse. I'm thinking an English teacher should know the difference between "can't" and "won't".

And I don't see how this is supposed to paint this god in a better light because it makes him look monumentally worse. No, it's not that he can't interfere in the acted out free choices of paedophile rapists, it's that he chooses not to and sod the free choices of those children who don't wish to be abused.

[jakswan]

I didn't botyer answering it because it clearly wasn't aimed at me, but was simply another way of dissing God and Christianity.  When you appreciate how much work a number of Christian organisatons have put into the region over the years, I don't thik you would be so glib.

Thankfully, I've never been in the particular situation you posited, but I've been in comparable ones and helped as best I could.

It was aimed at you thanks for answering, you can spare yourself the lecture on being glib. In future if I'm quoting you directly and post a sentence with a question mark at the end then I think you can safely assume a question is being directed at you.

We don't actually know whether there were attempts to save him and his brother.  For instance, did anyone try to talk his parents out of paying the smugglers, or out of getting into the boat?  Did anyone offer a safer way to safety?  You have no idea what had happened in the preceding days, weeks, months.

Yet the boy is dead, your god didn't save him.

So, you want a God who does your will, and who works in ways that you feel are appropriate.  As I say - we simply don't know what efforts had already been made to save that boy.

No Hoppity I just want it to save a two year old boy from drowning, if this god of yours or couldn't or wouldn't then it either does not exist or is not all powerful and loving.

Remember too, that if God had intervened to save him, would you actually have known?  How many other children have been saved from drowning by God's intervention?

Are you suggesting this is one that escaped by unnoticed?

[Gordon]

Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.

By the same token, where has your God been?

I can think of a number of Christian organisations who have been working in the refugee camps and behind the political scenes to try to bring people together in the region.

What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.

Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.

So, based on what you cite here, what you mention as being divine intervention from your God is just altruistic people doing stuff: in essence your God is doing no more than what people are capable of doing themselves despite, as you have often asserted before, your God being powerful enough to create and sustain a whole universe.

Moreover, since there are other altruistic groups of people helping their fellow humans but who aren't doing so in the name of Christianity this makes your God claim redundant since it is clear that people do exhibit altruism without reference to the Christian God. 

[torridon]

Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.

Is the Mohammedan belief of God validated by the existence of muslim aid agencies ?

[floo]

Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.

By the same token, where has your God been?

I can think of a number of Christian organisations who have been working in the refugee camps and behind the political scenes to try to bring people together in the region.

What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.

Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.

And your proof of that is?

[Sassy]

Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?

Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly.

I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance! I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.

I suppose they know the person asking is not sincere just trying to stir a reaction as you did. But then again we have only your word that you did ask and receive that in return. Why not post it or a link... Bums rush not here...

I certainly got a reaction, but extremists like yourself hate being challenged, don't they!

I think it is fair to say you are more challenged than a challenger.
As for myself there is nothing extreme but your accusations are extreme they have not substance to them...

[floo]

Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?

Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly.

I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance! I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.

I suppose they know the person asking is not sincere just trying to stir a reaction as you did. But then again we have only your word that you did ask and receive that in return. Why not post it or a link... Bums rush not here...

I certainly got a reaction, but extremists like yourself hate being challenged, don't they!

I think it is fair to say you are more challenged than a challenger.
As for myself there is nothing extreme but your accusations are extreme they have not substance to them...

The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!

[Hope]

The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!

Is stating that one has to take the consequences of one's choices all that extreme, Floo?  After all, you have regularly said that you wouldn't allow any of your own children to 'get off' the consequences of anything they did wrong.

[trippymonkey]

I agree but it's not that I feel Floo is on about.
It's the idea that a god can 'throw' a soul into burning hell-fire FOREVER ?!!?!?
We only punish once here on earth as a rule & THAT'S IT !!!

Anything more is blatant sadism & stinks of a hateful, spiteful human & not a creature ABOVE all this !!!

[Rhiannon]

As a parent my view is that there is nothing that can't be resolved by talking things through, even if it takes an age to sort it. Discipline isn't about punishment, it is about teaching, understanding and demonstrating empathy, even if that also involves consequences that aren't comfortable.

[floo]

The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!

Is stating that one has to take the consequences of one's choices all that extreme, Floo?  After all, you have regularly said that you wouldn't allow any of your own children to 'get off' the consequences of anything they did wrong.

OK if wrong doing should be punished, then it stands to reason that the deity should be punished for all the despicable deeds the Bible claims it committed!

[floo]

As a parent my view is that there is nothing that can't be resolved by talking things through, even if it takes an age to sort it. Discipline isn't about punishment, it is about teaching, understanding and demonstrating empathy, even if that also involves consequences that aren't comfortable.

I think discipline where kids are concerned does require punishment from time to time. I spanked my children from time to time if many warnings were ignored, and similarly my grandchildren with their parent's permission. More usually my children were grounded, had pocket money stopped, or made to do extra chores.

[jakswan]

The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!

Is stating that one has to take the consequences of one's choices all that extreme, Floo?  After all, you have regularly said that you wouldn't allow any of your own children to 'get off' the consequences of anything they did wrong.

Which might be a fine point if you had convincing evidence that the consequences are anything more than a fairy tale.

[Follower of Jesus]

Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!

The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.

WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous?

He is called a God of love because when we were still sinners Christ died for us. He is called a God of Love because he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. He is called a God of love because He loves us. Each and every one of us. Even me. There are plenty more reasons but those are enough for me