Author Topic: Equality in Islam  (Read 11748 times)

john

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Equality in Islam
« on: September 28, 2015, 05:09:35 PM »
Interesting report here on the way Islam treats people who loose their beliefs.

What does this tell us about the religion, is it so insecure it has to threaten it's critics?

All is it just scary control freakery.

Do they not realise how much damage they are doing to the image of Islam by such behaviour in this religion of "no compulsion"?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34357047
"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

Rhiannon

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 05:37:29 PM »
A lot of it is cultural, not bringing shame upon family members etc. it's like having a child out of wedlock or getting divorced used to be in Christian (especially Catholic) circles, only for Christians the punishment for transgressing from other Christians has largely been psychological.

Owlswing

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2015, 05:44:29 PM »
Interesting report here on the way Islam treats people who loose their beliefs.

What does this tell us about the religion, is it so insecure it has to threaten it's critics?

All is it just scary control freakery.

Do they not realise how much damage they are doing to the image of Islam by such behaviour in this religion of "no compulsion"?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34357047

Do they not realise . . . ?

I am not sure if is is a case of not realising or a case of just not caring.

I truly do not believe that Muslims, particularly Muslim clerics, care one jot what those of other beliefs or none think of Islam.

They are, as are Christians, convinced, body and soul, that theirs is the one true religion; thus they do not consider any other religious belief to be of any value or to be worth even consideing.

Muslin clerics are only interested in keeping their religion "pure", and, in order to do so, they will resotrt to whatever measures they consider are required to clean out any impurities - often by the simple expedient of execution. 
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

trippymonkey

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 10:38:06 PM »
We must all remember that Islam is in its Middle Ages & just look what 'WE' were doing then ?!?!!??

Owlswing

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2015, 11:26:40 PM »
We must all remember that Islam is in its Middle Ages & just look what 'WE' were doing then ?!?!!??

RUBBISH!

Islam might be in its Middle Ages - Muslims are not - they are in the 21st century and should act like it!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 11:59:05 PM »
Well then i think that Islam has no sense of direction Mr. Monkey, cause it's racing right back to it's bloody roots. In it's middle ages, that's the lamest defense or pass I've ever read.

trippymonkey

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2015, 08:45:31 AM »
JC WELLLL We ALL know you hate everybody & everything so no change there then. ;) I agree with your roots statement btw.

As for what I said about Middle Ages, I'm not making excuses for Islamic thought. OK We ARE in the 21st century but a lot of the Middle East isn't as we can plainly see at the mo , agreed ??? Assuming the term means a more intelligent attitude to things.

This is all about power & those wanting it, for whatever reason, will use ANY means to get it. Islam does indeed put us all into 2 camps, Muslim & NON-Muslim & acts accordingly.
Have any of you plonkers here actually SEEN A Quran never mind read it? I have & I can see perfectly how Islam is fiercely self-protecting.

Rose
Yes, it's true Islam was flourishing at the time 'we' were doing nasty things in Europe ?!?!!?

CMG or whatever curtain you hide behind !!
''Islam might be in its Middle Ages - Muslims are not - they are in the 21st century and should act like it!''

Bit contradictory, no??

jakswan

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2015, 11:18:20 AM »
We must all remember that Islam is in its Middle Ages & just look what 'WE' were doing then ?!?!!??

In the UK we drove Alan Turing to suicide in the 1950s.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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Owlswing

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2015, 02:56:02 PM »

CMG or whatever curtain you hide behind !!

''Islam might be in its Middle Ages - Muslims are not - they are in the 21st century and should act like it!''

Bit contradictory, no??


Trippymonkey or whatever pile of crap you are sitiing upon

No!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Rhiannon

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2015, 06:20:12 PM »
We must all remember that Islam is in its Middle Ages & just look what 'WE' were doing then ?!?!!??

I've heard something similar argued.

It goes that Islam is a young religion and Christianity went through the same sort of process.

The only thing is, from my own looking into it, Islam used to be more tolerant. Pictures of Mohammed used to be allowed at one point even in the Sunni tradition, and also there was quite a lot of scientific discoveries made by Muslims.

Now it seems to have gone backwards in some cases.

I'm not sure what went wrong.

Patriarchy-driven cultural change.

trippymonkey

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2015, 06:24:16 PM »
CMG
You really don't get it, do you?
I can just see you sat there with your hands over your ears with 'I'm not listening' squirting out your gob ?!?!? ;) ::)

Owlswing

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2015, 10:24:29 PM »
CMG
You really don't get it, do you?
I can just see you sat there with your hands over your ears with 'I'm not listening' squirting out your gob ?!?!? ;) ::)

If that is what you see - I'll have two bottles of whatever it is you are either drinkiing or mainlining!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

trippymonkey

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2015, 10:32:50 PM »
You'll need it, believe me if you knew what I know about Islam !!!

letstryagain

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 03:24:12 PM »
I have been on this board and the previous BBC board and have discussed with many Muslims, most have been intelligent and caring, some frankly barking, the common thread is the absolute belief in the un-changeability of the Koran despite its obvious faults. Thus we have people argue that because Mohammad was married to Aisha it was OK to have sex when she was 9. So Muslims are in the 21st Century, but mentally emotionally and spiritually they are still in the time of Mohammad, that is why they  behave so despicably  sometimes. Of course the same could be levelled at xtians but the Bible is softer and xtians have generally put aside medieval practices 

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2015, 08:40:25 PM »
I have been on this board and the previous BBC board and have discussed with many Muslims, most have been intelligent and caring, some frankly barking, the common thread is the absolute belief in the un-changeability of the Koran despite its obvious faults. Thus we have people argue that because Mohammad was married to Aisha it was OK to have sex when she was 9. So Muslims are in the 21st Century, but mentally emotionally and spiritually they are still in the time of Mohammad, that is why they  behave so despicably  sometimes. Of course the same could be levelled at xtians but the Bible is softer and xtians have generally put aside medieval practices
Which chapter in the Quran talks about Aisha being 9 years old - since you seem to be using that as an example of the Quran not being subject to change?

Her age is mentioned in hadith and biographies written in the mid-9th century about events set in the 7th century. There were political reasons to do with succession of Caliph of the Arab empire after Prophet Mohamed's death that would have been a motive for Aisha to be depicted as young - so that her virginity would not be challenged at the time she was married to Prophet Mohamed thereby giving her views on succession more credibility due to the cultural norms of purity for women giving them value in society.

I agree that many Muslims feel an emotional or spiritual connection to the time of Prophet Mohamed - that sense of connection is an important part of the faith. However, different Muslims seem to have different ideas about what "being in the time of Mohammed" actually means, hence the widely different beliefs being practised under the banner of Islam, depending on the cultural interpretations of the Islam in each Muslim household.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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trippymonkey

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2015, 10:42:29 PM »
MMMM OK
But it looks like Islam has failed to get ALL its adherents to think, know & feel the same thing, ???

jakswan

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2015, 12:32:23 AM »
Isn't it more to do with Mo being perfect dude therefore when he raped a 9 year old that was ok.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2015, 10:53:53 AM »
My point was that the 9 year old thing is not in the Quran so is not an example of the Quran not changing.

To address your point - not sure there are any Muslims who believe that he raped a 9 year old  - my impression is that they do not think of it as rape, even if they believed the 9 year old age thing was accurate (and her age has ranged from 9 -19 years) because as part of the belief the story would be that Aisha was not harmed in any way because she would have been protected from harm by God, because she was divinely ordained to be Prophet Mohamed's wife. And given that the traditional stories say she did not have any children with him, she went on to be an important figure in the Muslim/ Arab empire, her words were passed down through generations, and she went on to lead an army after Prophet Mohamed died, not many Muslims apply her unique story to the general public.

Anyone who extrapolates that to mean that  in the 21st century they could have sex with a 9 year old who has reached puberty , and believes that God would protect that 9 year old from harm, is likely to be pretty ignorant when it comes to both religion and women's issues, human biology, physiology, psychology, the dangers of childhood pregnancy, the importance of children being formally educated, the importance of job opportunities for young women etc.

What is more likely is that Muslims and non-Muslims who have child brides as part of their culture today do not think too deeply about these issues. Evidence from UNICEF shows that when communities are educated on these issues there are less incidents of child brides.

http://www.unicef.org/media/files/Child_Marriage_Report_7_17_LR..pdf

Quote
Girls who marry are not only denied their childhood. They
are often socially isolated – cut off from family and friends
and other sources of support – with limited opportunities
for education and employment. Households typically make
decisions about girls’ schooling and marriage jointly, not
sequentially, and education tends to lose out. Accordingly,
lower levels of education are found among women who
married in childhood. In Malawi, for instance, nearly two
thirds of women with no formal education were child brides
compared to 5 per cent of women who attended secondary
school or higher levels of education.

I don't see that blind faith in an idea is specific to religion - certain people cling onto all kinds of non-religious cultural beliefs that cause problems for societies. I think the issue is that some people are not willing to change their cultural beliefs because they have an over-riding emotional attachment to a particular idea or way of life or land.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Owlswing

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2015, 10:55:13 AM »
Isn't it more to do with Mo being perfect dude therefore when he raped a 9 year old that was ok.

Let's face it - when it comes to religion the adherents to any religion that has as its basis a "HOLY" book will inevitably be splintered into diverse groups, each with its own interpretation of the content and the meaning thereof.

Paganism does not have such a book and is equally splintered, but this splintering is, except for the followers of Gardner and Sanders, not a problem. In cases in which a Pagan has such a Holy Book, it is the Book of Shadows that each Pagan who has decided to keep one, except in Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca where copying out, by hand, the Coven BoS and then keeping it constantly updated is a binding rule, keeps as a record of observations, spells, rituals etc. that the individual Pagan considers important to their particular belief path. It is a book that is so personal that no-one but the writer will read it and, in most cases, it is destroyed by fire upon the death of the writer.   
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

trippymonkey

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2015, 03:42:16 PM »
Salaam G
Well explained....
Fear seems a be a most overriding factor in 'just doing' & not changing the past.

Nick

john

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2015, 04:18:30 PM »
Once again Gabriella refuses to engage with a perfectly valid point and goes to extreme lengths to distract attention from the original point.
 
Those who advocate death to Jews, seek to treat them as inferior, deny them services, etc. Are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

People who refuse to serve or let hotel rooms to homosexuals or subject them to assault, etc. Are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

People who deny equality to others based on their racial appearance, are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

Some threaten to kill Muslims, treat them as inferior, deny them jobs, refuse them employment, etc. Muslims (quite rightly) demand legal and moral protection from such treatment.   

Yet Muslims who simply leave their faith to become Christians or just atheists are likely to be killed or totally ostracised by their family and community, thus suffering great hardship at the least. Such treatment is condoned and encouraged by Islam.

What abject hypocrisy.

That's the point that needs addressing Gabriella.

 
"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

Owlswing

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2015, 05:55:48 PM »
Once again Gabriella refuses to engage with a perfectly valid point and goes to extreme lengths to distract attention from the original point.
 
Those who advocate death to Jews, seek to treat them as inferior, deny them services, etc. Are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

People who refuse to serve or let hotel rooms to homosexuals or subject them to assault, etc. Are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

People who deny equality to others based on their racial appearance, are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

Some threaten to kill Muslims, treat them as inferior, deny them jobs, refuse them employment, etc. Muslims (quite rightly) demand legal and moral protection from such treatment.   

Yet Muslims who simply leave their faith to become Christians or just atheists are likely to be killed or totally ostracised by their family and community, thus suffering great hardship at the least. Such treatment is condoned and encouraged by Islam.

What abject hypocrisy.

That's the point that needs addressing Gabriella.

Getting Gabriella to admit to a downside or hypocrisy in Islam is like trying to get Sassy and Alien to admit to a downside or hgypocrisy in Christianity!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2015, 03:32:59 PM »
Once again Gabriella refuses to engage with a perfectly valid point and goes to extreme lengths to distract attention from the original point.
 
Those who advocate death to Jews, seek to treat them as inferior, deny them services, etc. Are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

People who refuse to serve or let hotel rooms to homosexuals or subject them to assault, etc. Are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

People who deny equality to others based on their racial appearance, are committing an offence and will (quite rightly) be prosecuted.

Some threaten to kill Muslims, treat them as inferior, deny them jobs, refuse them employment, etc. Muslims (quite rightly) demand legal and moral protection from such treatment.   

Yet Muslims who simply leave their faith to become Christians or just atheists are likely to be killed or totally ostracised by their family and community, thus suffering great hardship at the least. Such treatment is condoned and encouraged by Islam.

What abject hypocrisy.

That's the point that needs addressing Gabriella.
Actually John, there is no single point that needs addressing, the same way there is no single Islam. So once again let me correct you - there is not one Islam, there are many different interpretations of Islam- some good, some bad - hence some people's interpretations view apostasy as grounds to kill someone or treat them in a discriminatory way whereas other people's interpretations mean that they leave it to God to judge an apostate. People are influenced in their interpretations an beliefs by a mix of their political, social, economic, technological environment and their personality, the education they have had, etc etc

I don't need to distract attention from your point. I addressed a point about the Quran that was made by another poster because it interested me - whereas your point has been made many times before and been engaged with and answered by me many times. Feel free to continue clinging onto whatever belief you want about anything, including Islam. I of course will continue to express the opinion on here, in whatever thread I deem appropriate, that there are different interpretations of Islam, as is the case with any other belief, school of thought, philosophy, idea.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

trippymonkey

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2015, 03:45:15 PM »
Salaam G
Well THIS is the problem when a script can be (mis) interpreted in any manner of ways.
If the Quran IS perfect guidance then there should be NO translation or interpretation possible, no ??

Mohd turned right at the Kabba NOT well, maybe he turned right but it might have been left.
It depends on the translation _ or

Nick

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Equality in Islam
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2015, 04:03:49 PM »
Salaam G
Well THIS is the problem when a script can be (mis) interpreted in any manner of ways.
If the Quran IS perfect guidance then there should be NO translation or interpretation possible, no ??

Mohd turned right at the Kabba NOT well, maybe he turned right but it might have been left.
It depends on the translation _ or

Nick
You could certainly hold the interpretation or belief or expectation that "perfect" means that there is no interpretation possible. The word "perfect" is open to many interpretations.

While it would certainly be helpful in a superficial way if a book or message could control people's minds and actions, I personally don't have that particular expectation of religion or scripture. I don't expect religion to make my decisions easier nor do I want to follow something that robs me of the ability to think about moral questions. I find religion useful and appealing precisely because it makes me think about morality, provides different perspectives on the nature and existence of spirituality and morality and because thinking about these perspectives leads me to question and reevaluate my philosophy, beliefs, decisions, feelings and behaviour.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi