I don't want to be an atheist

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

I like Judaism because i see it as ethical and fairly pragmatical.

Then you would like Karen Armstrongs writings, the golden rule, central to her Charter for Compassion.

Gonnagle.

[jakswan]

However, I don't think I am ever going to be an atheist.  It just isn't me.

You might not identify as an atheist but if lack belief in a god then you will become one. 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

If I might suggest " A Short History of Myth " to be a good starting point.

Small book, and if that wets your appetite, then " A Case for God " and " History of God " where she goes into greater depth.

Her books are totally unbiased and very well researched.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

Hi Gonners

Her books are totally unbiased and very well researched.

Well researched - yes. Totally unbiased - Less so.

But then I would imagine it is very difficult to write a totally unbiased book about anything.

She writes from her perspective without becoming polemical I would agree. But bias is there. As with every writer that has lived.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

Fair point, maybe what I was trying to say is she is not sympathetic to any one chosen religion.

Although I did read that she quite likes Judaism.

Oh and she has no time for the likes of Dawkin or Hitchen.

Gonnagle.

[SweetPea]

I agree with Maeght, I don't think there's much choice in it. That said, I find atheists more tolerant than Christians, at least on the net.

I don't like it when atheists want me to 'see sense ' or 'come round'; very occasionally I've been offered atheist book lists. It's still less offensive than being told I'm led astray by Satan though.

I get Jeremy - I found no longer being a Christian both liberating and less stressful.

Well I don't think you are led astray by Satan.

I think you are a bit overly sensitive sometimes and have a bad habit of taking things personally.

Sweetpea I think was talking generally, not personally.

Everyone has been led astray by Satan, according to someone somewhere, look at how Catholics and the Pope are regarded by some other areas of Christianity.

The Jews have had even more problems with Christians in the past, probably at least as much as Pagans.

There are so many groups who's beliefs in religion has a negative view of those outside it, that it doesn't pay to take it all personally and get upset.

Life is too short.

Thank you, Rose.... you're absolutely right.

Anyway, I'm done with this place.

That's a shame, SweetPea. But...it isn't that I've taken what you said personally I haven't - but that the beliefs that link New Age to 'being led astray by lucifer' aren't just intolerant and inaccurate, they are dangerous. That you tried a path and found it wrong for you is completely understandable but that doesn't make it evil. The persecutions that happen to pagans and followers of other alternative spiritualities aren't made up; they affect lives, including families. Matt nearly lost both his kids and his liberty because of them. I know you didn't mean a direct comparison of your path to mine - although they were not dissimilar until recently - but giving credence to the idea that leaving conventional Christianity is in any way satanic or satan-led leaves pagans and others unsafe and open to persecution.

Well, those are your thoughts, but I cannot be held to ransom because my beliefs differ from yours, Rhiannon. Personally, I would never criticize you or anyone else.... atheist or pagan alike.... it's none of my business what you believe. As I mentioned previously, it is only extremists that are going to persecute people for their beliefs.

Yes, I was drawn to pantheism and the 'pull' was tremendous.... I really thought for a time, this is the answer. I agree that God is in creation (but not THE creation) of course, creation comes from God; but the vital piece missing from pantheism is the Creator of the creation. The Bible is all we have on the Word of God, and as someone once said: " The Bible is like a person. If you torture it enough, you can get it to say anything. God did not intend for people to torture the Bible. He meant for us to accept it. It is His words for us.

The gift of discernment is so important and a wonderful blessing. Without discernment, there is a danger of being deceived and therefore, opening doors to more and more deception.

[Rhiannon]

SP, I fail to see how I'm 'holding you to ransom'. There's nothing wrong with you rejecting pantheism, or wanting to accept the Bible more fully. That you feel you had wandered along a path that is wrong for you is perfectly understandable and I get that you will have a sense of relief and homecoming.

But this idea that a being - Lucifer, Satan - is responsible for leading Christians towards pagan or New Age beliefs is dangerous, SP. It isn't only extremists who persecute pagans. There is so much misinformation out there - not just from Christians but also the media and entertainment industries - that it's not uncommon for pagan children to be ostracised in school, and police get involved when no crime has been committed. One of the latest cases that the Pagan Fed have been involved with was a woman who called the police because of her abusive partner;on arrival he told them that she was 'demented' because she was into 'all that witchcraft shit' and she was the one to end up in the cells.

[Rhiannon]

Nice post, Rose. I feel nothing but happiness for SweetPea that she's found what is for her such a true path.

[Outrider]

It's a huge difference: followers of Christian ethics don't necessarily believe that Jesus walked on water or that God is real, but they do (probably) believe that you should 'love thy neighbour'.

That's a massive difference.

O.

I think you are trivialising and twisting what Christians are saying.

I'm sorry you've chosen to take it that way.

To love one's neighbour properly one has to deal or more to the point get the mote in one's eye dealt with.

First you'd have to establish that there was a mote, and secondly you'd have to establish that only perfect people were capable of caring for their neighbour - I'm not sure you can do either of those, and I'm damned sure you can't do both.

O.

[Outrider]

The problem is petitionary prayer is not a hypothesis in any scientific sense. The claim is nonsensical and using science on meaningless.

In and of itself it isn't a scientific hypothesis, but it is a claim about the physical world, and that claim can be used to formulate an hypothesis.

We have a history of hypotheses about many things based purely on the effects they elicit, without any explanatory mechanism. Only once we've demonstrated that there's an effect to be explored do we get to the mechanics.

O.

[Outrider]

That the woo pushers might phrase their claims in scientific terms of cause and effect does not change that it is incorrectly done. Any naturalistic method necessitates an approach that assumes naturalism. That the other side not only do not provide a method and misunderstand the method on offer does not mean that abusing the method we have makes any sort of philosophical sense.

To invalidate the claim, though, you do not need to demonstrate the falsity of each and every step, only that the entirety is not demonstrably true. They make a claim, you demonstrate that the entirety of the claim is not true, they are forced to revise the claim - you don't need to disprove god/angels/intercessionary supernatural beings, just that no-one's feeling any better

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

That the woo pushers might phrase their claims in scientific terms of cause and effect does not change that it is incorrectly done. Any naturalistic method necessitates an approach that assumes naturalism. That the other side not only do not provide a method and misunderstand the method on offer does not mean that abusing the method we have makes any sort of philosophical sense.

To invalidate the claim, though, you do not need to demonstrate the falsity of each and every step, only that the entirety is not demonstrably true. They make a claim, you demonstrate that the entirety of the claim is not true, they are forced to revise the claim - you don't need to disprove god/angels/intercessionary supernatural beings, just that no-one's feeling any better

O.

That's right.

There are often two stages to claims. First the cause/effect or association, phenomenon claim. In other words I do something and something happens. Only once this association is demonstrated are claims of causality (i.e. the thing you did causes the effect) or mechanism (they are linked because of this mechanism) valid.

So take divining - the first claim is that diviners using a skill can find water. There are then further claims as to the mechanism. But if under controlled test conditions diviners are unable to find water any more often than would be suggested by random chance then the basic claim fails. No further study is necessary.

So with prayer if the basic claim - that if people pray for something to happen (e.g. a person getting better when ill) then the person prayed for is more likely to get better - must be demonstrated as an association, before any mechanistic claim (god intervenes) can be considered. So if there is no evidence that prayer is associated with an effect then the claim fails.

If there is an association then some further study can be considered, most notably in this example studies to investigate the placebo effect. So in this case whether improvement (or deterioration) only occurs if the person prayed for knows they are being prayed for.

[2Corrie]

Sweetpea

If I might make a suggestion.

I think you can be a Christian and avoid elements of what is perceived as " the occult" without upsetting anyone.

Presumably you are supposed to live by the example Jesus set and make your decisions from those things, a sort of Christian ethics, based on Jesus and his teachings.

It's up to you to discern what that is.  This then is your path.

All you need to really say is you prefer to work things out for yourself, using Jesus as your guide.

No one needs to bring up Satan, or being deceived or anything else like that.

You are allowed to have your own path, and others to have theirs.

I have had Romanies offer to tell me my future and I just say " no thanks , I prefer to work it out for myself"

I think most Pagans can accept your path is not theirs.

 

To make your life decisions based on the ethical teachings of Jesus is a valid path.

I don't think you need the other "more superstitious " reasons. They just alienate people   

So Christians should 'live and let die'?  I know there are many who would like to believe that there are 'many paths' or 'many ways up the mountain', however, sincerely that is not the case.  The Lord Jesus is 'The way, the truth and the life', it is the Christian's job to warn and to pray so that people can be rescued from the deception. Let me add that it's not just those who are into the occult that are deceived, this is not some vendetta against them, the whole world sways under the power of the evil one; there are many deceptions; but there is only one Truth. I pray that all would find it.

[floo]

Sweetpea

If I might make a suggestion.

I think you can be a Christian and avoid elements of what is perceived as " the occult" without upsetting anyone.

Presumably you are supposed to live by the example Jesus set and make your decisions from those things, a sort of Christian ethics, based on Jesus and his teachings.

It's up to you to discern what that is.  This then is your path.

All you need to really say is you prefer to work things out for yourself, using Jesus as your guide.

No one needs to bring up Satan, or being deceived or anything else like that.

You are allowed to have your own path, and others to have theirs.

I have had Romanies offer to tell me my future and I just say " no thanks , I prefer to work it out for myself"

I think most Pagans can accept your path is not theirs.

 

To make your life decisions based on the ethical teachings of Jesus is a valid path.

I don't think you need the other "more superstitious " reasons. They just alienate people   

So Christians should 'live and let die'?  I know there are many who would like to believe that there are 'many paths' or 'many ways up the mountain', however, sincerely that is not the case.  The Lord Jesus is 'The way, the truth and the life', it is the Christian's job to warn and to pray so that people can be rescued from the deception. Let me add that it's not just those who are into the occult that are deceived, this is not some vendetta against them, the whole world sways under the power of the evil one; there are many deceptions; but there is only one Truth. I pray that all would find it.

You have not the slightest shred of verifiable evidence to support your statement, you are a liar if you say your have! Making threats as to what will happen to people who don't see it your way is abusive and WRONG, as I know only too well!

[Rhiannon]

The frightening thing is the credence given to the notion that the devil exists to deceive. It's medieval.

[Nearly Sane]

And again given an omni god the devil will act in line with the nature of that omni god. This is the only reality that can exist if you position an omni god.

[Rhiannon]

Both of whom seem to have too much time on their hands if their greatest concern is whether or not people get into meditation or tarot or Dawkins.

[Nearly Sane]

Both of whom seem to have too much time on their hands if their greatest concern is whether or not people get into meditation or tarot or Dawkins.

Every Friday they meet up at the Deitys'r'us for a cigar, a snifter and a snigger.

[wigginhall]

2Corrie says that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.   Why doesn't God stop it then?   He could, couldn't he?

[Shaker]

Something something something free will.

[Nearly Sane]

Something something something free will.

Except the argument here makes free will irrelevant. The world/universe whatever can only be this way. If god could have done anything better,it would have to have done so by its nature.

[torridon]

So Christians should 'live and let die'?  I know there are many who would like to believe that there are 'many paths' or 'many ways up the mountain', however, sincerely that is not the case.  The Lord Jesus is 'The way, the truth and the life', it is the Christian's job to warn and to pray so that people can be rescued from the deception. Let me add that it's not just those who are into the occult that are deceived, this is not some vendetta against them, the whole world sways under the power of the evil one; there are many deceptions; but there is only one Truth. I pray that all would find it.

Your thinking is self-contradictory it seems to me. You are of the position, I thought, that we can only be saved by Grace, therefore it matters not one jot whether we go searching for God or live a Christ-like life or whether or not we succeed in getting to a correct understanding, it's all in God's hands.

[2Corrie]

I'm afraid it's posts like 2corrie's that makes me know I'm not a Christian.

It requires a level of superstition I just don't have.

I like the old hymn


The Lord’s my Shepherd, I’ll not want;
He makes me down to lie
In pastures green; He leadeth me
The quiet waters by.
My soul He doth restore again,
And me to walk doth make
Within the paths of righteousness,
E’en for His own name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk in death’s dark vale,
Yet will I fear no ill;
For Thou art with me, and Thy rod
And staff my comfort still.
My table Thou hast furnished me
In presence of my foes;
My head Thou dost with oil anoint,
And my cup overflows.
Goodness and mercy all my life
Shall surely follow me;
And in God’s house forevermore,
My dwelling place shall be.

No room for fear there or thinking the world is under the power of the evil one, IMO. *


But then it's a Psalm which was pre Jesus and Christian theology.

* This is the hymn of a believer - they are not under his power.

[2Corrie]

So Christians should 'live and let die'?  I know there are many who would like to believe that there are 'many paths' or 'many ways up the mountain', however, sincerely that is not the case.  The Lord Jesus is 'The way, the truth and the life', it is the Christian's job to warn and to pray so that people can be rescued from the deception. Let me add that it's not just those who are into the occult that are deceived, this is not some vendetta against them, the whole world sways under the power of the evil one; there are many deceptions; but there is only one Truth. I pray that all would find it.

Your thinking is self-contradictory it seems to me. You are of the position, I thought, that we can only be saved by *Grace, therefore it matters not one jot whether we go searching for God or live a Christ-like life or whether or not we succeed in getting to a correct understanding, it's all in God's hands.

By Grace through faith

[SweetPea]

Sweetpea

If I might make a suggestion.

I think you can be a Christian and avoid elements of what is perceived as " the occult" without upsetting anyone.

Presumably you are supposed to live by the example Jesus set and make your decisions from those things, a sort of Christian ethics, based on Jesus and his teachings.

It's up to you to discern what that is.  This then is your path.

All you need to really say is you prefer to work things out for yourself, using Jesus as your guide.

No one needs to bring up Satan, or being deceived or anything else like that.

You are allowed to have your own path, and others to have theirs.

I have had Romanies offer to tell me my future and I just say " no thanks , I prefer to work it out for myself"

I think most Pagans can accept your path is not theirs.

 

To make your life decisions based on the ethical teachings of Jesus is a valid path.

I don't think you need the other "more superstitious " reasons. They just alienate people   

So Christians should 'live and let die'?  I know there are many who would like to believe that there are 'many paths' or 'many ways up the mountain', however, sincerely that is not the case.  The Lord Jesus is 'The way, the truth and the life', it is the Christian's job to warn and to pray so that people can be rescued from the deception. Let me add that it's not just those who are into the occult that are deceived, this is not some vendetta against them, the whole world sways under the power of the evil one; there are many deceptions; but there is only one Truth. I pray that all would find it.

You have not the slightest shred of verifiable evidence to support your statement, you are a liar if you say your have! Making threats as to what will happen to people who don't see it your way is abusive and WRONG, as I know only too well!

If you read 2Corrie's post again she has not made any threats.

Well, I didn't want to post about the event I experienced when I gave up my new age belief but feel I must, now, as you say there is no evidence  to support 2Corrie's words.

In the very moment that I renounced my new age beliefs I was spiritually attacked, and it was very, very frightening. Only by praying and calling on Jesus Christ did the attack cease.
Many ex-new agers have had a similar experience - you only have to 'google'.

Randall N. Baer, an ex-new age leader details what happened to him when he gave up the philosophy in his book, 'Living in the New Age Nightmare'. Johanna Michaelsen's account of her experience on leaving the occult behind is well worth a read.

Many ex-new agers are now trying to help those leaving NA behind.