WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?

[wigginhall]

I'm dredging up various traditional arguments here, and as well as the free will one, there is the magic one, that if God kept intervening, that would disrupt nature, and produce a magical universe.   This would be unintelligible for humans, and too inconsistent for animals, possibly.   In other words, nature would become irregular.

This implies that god needs to create non-god in order for us to make sense of anything, meaning god alone is unintelligible.

 Anyway, the opposite works the same, though. You could just as easily argue that god does keep intervening to keep it intelligible.

It's possible then that God intervenes continuously to produce the world we have; or doesn't intervene at all; or 50% of the time, or 25%.   The interesting thing is that we have no way of telling, well, it seemed interesting five minutes ago, but now I'm not so sure.   I suggest that we ask Alan B., as he seems to have some insights into it, thus, gravity is not maintained by God, apparently, too tiring.

[Andy]

I'm dredging up various traditional arguments here, and as well as the free will one, there is the magic one, that if God kept intervening, that would disrupt nature, and produce a magical universe.   This would be unintelligible for humans, and too inconsistent for animals, possibly.   In other words, nature would become irregular.

This implies that god needs to create non-god in order for us to make sense of anything, meaning god alone is unintelligible.

 Anyway, the opposite works the same, though. You could just as easily argue that god does keep intervening to keep it intelligible.

It's possible then that God intervenes continuously to produce the world we have; or doesn't intervene at all; or 50% of the time, or 25%.   The interesting thing is that we have no way of telling, well, it seemed interesting five minutes ago, but now I'm not so sure.   I suggest that we ask Alan B., as he seems to have some insights into it, thus, gravity is not maintained by God, apparently, too tiring.

I have it on good authority that god intervenes to keep people dead and only when he lets go of the reins and lets things run their course do people start springing back to life...

[Hope]

...and only when he lets go of the reigns and lets things run their course ...

 

[Owlswing]

. . .  Things are the way they are because god only does things how god is constrained to do them.

According to Hope, Sassy et al their god is all powerful! He has power without contraint.

And according to others, god cannot do something that is not good. Shall we come back when they can all get their stories straight with one another first?

Do not - repeat - DO NOT hold your breath!

[Alien]

Er, my computer is having a very bad day (Windows 10 system restores not working, Office 2016 re-installed twice with SnagIt gone wrong, WinZip gone wrong and the printer not printing). I will reply to people's points here when I can. I've still got a home group to prepare before 8pm.

Are you lot aware that this is the Faith-Sharing Board?

[jakswan]

Er, my computer is having a very bad day (Windows 10 system restores not working, Office 2016 re-installed twice with SnagIt gone wrong, WinZip gone wrong and the printer not printing). I will reply to people's points here when I can. I've still got a home group to prepare before 8pm.

That is convenient.

Are you lot aware that this is the Faith-Sharing Board?

Are you sure?

[Andy]

Are you lot aware that this is the Faith-Sharing Board?

I'm aware that it's not.

[Gordon]

Are you lot aware that this is the Faith-Sharing Board?

It isn't, Alan.

[Alien]

Are you lot aware that this is the Faith-Sharing Board?

It isn't, Alan.

I told you I was having a bad day (yes, I know I said my computer was but my computer and I are, well, like one).

[Owlswing]

Are you lot aware that this is the Faith-Sharing Board?

It isn't, Alan.

I told you I was having a bad day (yes, I know I said my computer was but my computer and I are, well, like one).

From the robotic parroting of Christian belief, that is blindingly obvious!

[jakswan]

... universalists don't, this refutes your claim.

But are Universalists Christians, jakswan?  In other words do any of the ideas that characterise Universalism match what Jesus taught in the Bible?

If a Christian is someone who has recognised their need to be saved, then that would surely count universalists out, I would suggest.

That is not the definition of a Christian.

[Hope]

That is not the definition of a Christian.

What s your defnition of 'Christian', jaks?

[jakswan]

That is not the definition of a Christian.

What s your defnition of 'Christian', jaks?

Someone who claims to follow the teachings of Christ. What he actually taught depends on the Christian.

[2Corrie]

Jesus taught 'repent and believe the Gospel' do you think a person who did not recognise their need to be saved would do that Jak?

[jakswan]

Jesus taught 'repent and believe the Gospel' do you think a person who did not recognise their need to be saved would do that Jak?

Depends on the Christian.

[Hope]

Someone who claims to follow the teachings of Christ. What he actually taught depends on the Christian.

I think that highlights the problem.  Let me give you a different example: if I claim to follow the 'teachings' of Karl Marx, does that necessarily mean that I'm a Marxist?  No.  Jesus taught that simply claiming to follow his teachings isn't enough; the real test is living them.

The problem with a site like this is that we only see a segment of people's behaviour, and even then that is skewed by the lack of non-linguistic language to put our posts into the larger context that we would usually have when communication face-to-face.

There are some here who appear through their posting style to be extremely brusque and even rude; I suspect that if we were to meet each other F2F we would see very different aspects of each other.

[jakswan]

I think that highlights the problem.  Let me give you a different example: if I claim to follow the 'teachings' of Karl Marx, does that necessarily mean that I'm a Marxist?  No.  Yes.

FIFY. Let me help you with the point you are trying to make. If you claimed to be a Marxist AND thought capitalism was brilliant AND we agreed that Karl Marx didn't teach that then you would not be a Marxist.

I'm agnostic as to exactly what Jesus taught, it very much depends on which Christian you listen to.

[Hope]

I think that highlights the problem.  Let me give you a different example: if I claim to follow the 'teachings' of Karl Marx, does that necessarily mean that I'm a Marxist? No.   Yes.

FIFY. Let me help you with the point you are trying to make. If you claimed to be a Marxist AND thought capitalism was brilliant AND we agreed that Karl Marx didn't teach that then you would not be a Marxist.

I'm agnostic as to exactly what Jesus taught, it very much depends on which Christian you listen to.

I've fixed the original post so that it actually makes the point I wanted to make, jaks. 

Whether or not YOU are 'agnostic as to exactly what Jesus taught', it doesn't depend on what a particular Christian you listen to says.  It depends on what Jesus taught, and as with many such teaching issues, one needs to understand the context and language that teaching was first given in.  For instance I do not believe that some of the doctines that the RC or Orthodox Churches hold to relate, in any way, to Jesus' teachings (nor, for that matter, to the writings of Paul, which they often claim their ideas to be based on - such as the idea of compulsory priestly celibacy).  Jesus also pointed out that there will be some who claim to be his followers who he will simply not recognise.  It is for God to decide who are his true followers.

[Alien]

..

So you can explain how it is morally good to allow a 9 year old to be raped, or a child to be tortured to death for fun?
This must be some explanation, and would then invalidate your earlier claim that it is ALWAYS wrong.

Are you saying it is sometimes right to allow these things to happen?

For you and me to allow it? There are times, yes. For example if stopping it happen would allow it to happen to two nine year olds. What would you do in that situation?

As for God allowing it to happen, he has the complete picture, which you and I don't, so may have a morally sufficient reason to allow it. If you think that is a logical problem then you will need to show that God, if he exists, cannot have a morally sufficient reason.

[Alien]

Alien,

Those things which are objectively morally wrong, God will not do.

How would this god know whether something is "objectively morally good" exactly? 

It is his nature to only do what is good.

The one we talk about most here is "Torturing a child to death just for fun". Note the "just" in there, as in "solely", "for the sole purpose".

No, that's not "the one" at all - ie, an objective moral truth. It's just something lots of people (though not all) happen currently to agree on is all. Remember?

And?

If God allows an evil, it is for a greater good.

Aw, the "it's a mystery" get out clause of theists through the ages when confronted with the uncomfortable fact that observably things happen that contradict their claims of an omnibenevolent god.

Fantastic casuistry and special pleading, just fantastic.   

No, it is not "mystery". If you think there is a logical problem with it, please explain it (rather than use the common approach here among atheists of not engaging with the argument).

[Alien]

Surely we are back at of omni god this is the best of all possible worlds, therefore as Alan Burns stated the holocaust is a miracle.

I thoroughly disagree with AB on that.

[floo]

Surely we are back at of omni god this is the best of all possible worlds, therefore as Alan Burns stated the holocaust is a miracle.

I thoroughly disagree with AB on that.

As any decent person would!

[Alien]

Alien,

Some here get a bit confused about the difference between Islam and Christianity. In case that happens here, the 72 virgins bit is an Islamic idea, not a Christian one.

And some here get a bit confused when the conversation has moved on to the phenomenology of religious faiths generally rather than of just one of them.

The trouble is that you then start tarring Christianity with an Islamic brush. Unless you can demonstrate that a problem with Islam has an equivalent problem in Christianity it is just sloppy argument on your part and some here will not notice. You start to sound rather like Dawkins and (this is a genuine statement, not me taking the mick) you are better than that.

[Alien]

Alien

It could be if the price to be paid for stopping one 9 year old being raped was that two 9 year olds got raped.

Anyway, as I said above, this is meant to be about what makes a person saved in Christ Jesus.

So you now say that it might be morally okay to allow a child to be tortured just for fun even if you could stop it happening?

Yes. Note the word "might".

How can you tell if something is right or wrong then, as you cannot know everything?

The general principles, at least, are laid down in Scripture.

How do you know Hitler did not have some idea of ultimate long term well being for all?

Can I be 100% certain? I can't, but I am 99.9999% certain. There would surely have been some hint somewhere, but there isn't so it seems almost certainly that he didn't.

Do you think Hitler had "some idea of ultimate long term well being for all"?  Please make sure you answer the question because, though you are very good at asking them, you rarely answer any.

How do you judge any action wrong?

See above.

[jakswan]

It is his nature to only do what is good.

How you know raping a nine year is objectively morally good or not. Don't ask me I can only give my subjective view.