WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?

[Alien]

NS,

Surely we are back at of omni god this is the best of all possible worlds, therefore as Alan Burns stated the holocaust is a miracle.

Quite so. Apparently this omniscient god wasn't smart enough to figure out a plan for the greater good that didn't involve the deaths of six million jews.

Was there a plan which would fit that bill? If you can't come up with one, then I suggest the need for greater humility.

[Alien]

So you're not prepared to run with the hypothetical and you want the name of an actual person who is as close to being morally perfect as possible?

It would make it easier to discuss.

You're the one who is being difficult. If you run with the hypothetical it will make it easier.

Only if you can actually define what you mean. How morally perfect is "as morally perfect as possible"? Give some examples rather than just make vague statements.

As I said, neither is possible. I thought you were taking about someone, in general, who is a sinner and had "recognised their sinfulness, their just judgement and need for God's forgiveness".

You've asserted neither is possible even when I included in the statements that it's within the confines of what is possible. A or B, Alan?

Example needed to show that it is possible in the first place.

[Alien]

...

So its impossible to torture a child to death just for fun, because it must be 'for fun & gods version of greater good'.

No, you misunderstand again. The motive of the torturer is "just for fun." It says nothing about God's motives or knowledge.

[jakswan]

Whether or not YOU are 'agnostic as to exactly what Jesus taught', it doesn't depend on what a particular Christian you listen to says.  It depends on what Jesus taught, and as with many such teaching issues, one needs to understand the context and language that teaching was first given in.  For instance I do not believe that some of the doctines that the RC or Orthodox Churches hold to relate, in any way, to Jesus' teachings (nor, for that matter, to the writings of Paul, which they often claim their ideas to be based on - such as the idea of compulsory priestly celibacy).  Jesus also pointed out that there will be some who claim to be his followers who he will simply not recognise.  It is for God to decide who are his true followers.

I can't know what Jesus taught since we do not have enough evidence to decide. Whilst you, a Christian, might assert X another will assert not X, the term is broad which is why we have different types of Christian.

[Alien]

All actions are right in this position with omni god. Everything can only happen as it does. The holocaust was a miracle, it was meant to happen, there was no way it could be avoided. The omni god chose it.

This would also apply to allowing a child to be tortured to death for fun as well.

So Aliens earlier statement about objective moral values have come unstuck.

Ignoring for a moment the errors in NS's statement, why do you think your claim is correct?

[Alien]

Alien,

It could be if the price to be paid for stopping one 9 year old being raped was that two 9 year olds got raped.

So not only would this omniscient god not be bright enough to work out a solution in which no-one got raped, but he's a moral consequentialist too?

Wow!

Do you have any idea how far out of your depth you are Alien, let alone of how morally screwed you've become?

An inkling maybe?

Anything at all?

No?

Incorrect. You seem assume that all possible worlds are feasible. That may be incorrect.

[Alien]

Alien,

Surely your god can just as easily stop 2 or 99999999999999999999999 the power 999999999999999999 children being raped.
So why would he need to let 1 be raped?

If that was all that was going on then yes, but the world is a far more complicated place that what happens to 2 children. It is too complicated for you and me to work everything out, but not for God.

[Alien]

BR,

So Aliens earlier statement about objective moral values have come unstuck.

Sorry to be picky here, but they were never "stuck" in the first place. He spent a lot of time sharing his personal opinion (and the opinions of lots of others) on TACTDJFF, but so far as I know he never troubled himself with an argument to bridge the gap from that to an objective moral truth.

In your opinion.

[jakswan]

...

So its impossible to torture a child to death just for fun, because it must be 'for fun & gods version of greater good'.

No, you misunderstand again. The motive of the torturer is "just for fun." It says nothing about God's motives or knowledge.

According to you, god would not allow a child to be tortured just for the fun of the torturer, you are describing an event that you define as impossible.

[Alien]

I'm reluctant to fall into the hall of mirrors logic of Alien, but as I understand it he'd say that, say, raping the nine-year-old was morally bad, but as his god ordered or allowed it it must have entailed less net moral badness than any alternative this god was capable of thinking up. In other words it's still morally bad even with his god calling the shots, only even greater net moral badness would have ensued if "He" hadn't.

Which suggests, using Alan's approach, that in allowing the Holocaust his omni-God didn't act because to do so would have resulted in something morally worse in this divine big picture scenario - such as? This also implies that any disasters you can ever cite: Aberfan, various natural disasters throughout history, Hillsborough, Ebola - the list is endless - were all less bad that would have happened otherwise if the omni-God had intervened.

OK so far.

When you get right down to it this type of thinking is primitive nonsense, and burying this nonsense in the fallacious arguments, such a those involving authority, tradition and incredulity on which the dogma of organised religion is built, doesn't make the omni-God idea any less nonsensical.

Stephen Laws once described the Problem of Evil as perhaps the strongest argument against religious dogma involving an all-loving God, and I think he is right.

And the logical reason it is that is what? That sounds like a typical atheist rant totally lacking in reason. Of course proposing such a God does not demonstrate that God actually exists, but it does show that the existence of evil is not a defeater for the existence of God. Until you lot can see that this conversation is going to be fairly pointless.

[Alien]

...

No, I think he talks about it in the same way. Alien is a Leibnizian - to get around the problem of bad things happening to good people ("the problem of evil") he has to conclude that god knows best, it's all a mystery, and "never mind nine-year-old, your sacrifice has helped others". It's morally corrosive stuff - you can post-rationalise anything that way, however foul but it gets less thinking theists off the hook. Several other moral philosophers took Leibniz apart on this I think.   

You'll be able to quote them and demonstrate this to be true then?

[Alien]

...

For whose "greater good"?

Evil - Islamic State - for whose "greater good" does your god allow this?

Evil - Childhood Cancers - for whose "greater good" does you god allow these?

Evils -  Drought and famine - for whose "greater good" does your god allow these?

The only reason that he allows these evils, as far as I can see, is to teach non-believers that the only way to avoid these evils is to do precisesly and exactly what he says!

On a smaller scale the same can be said of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and every other dictator that your goid has allowed to flourish. And it has been men of ALL religious persuasions who have rid the world of these evils NOT your god.

If the Christian God exists then he knows everything there is to know. You and I don't. He knows how individuals would choose to act in whatever situation they are put in. You and I don't. He knows what the overall best world would be. You and I don't.

It all comes down to whether the Christian God exists. If he does then there must be a morally sufficient reason why he allows the crap that goes on in this world. If he doesn't then there is no point to all the crap, all the suffering, all the evil, all the disease, all the hardship (unless there is some other God who is loving and wants the best for mankind, etc.),

[Alien]

...

SUPER COP OUT!

See post above.

[Alien]

I'm dredging up various traditional arguments here, and as well as the free will one, there is the magic one, that if God kept intervening, that would disrupt nature, and produce a magical universe.   This would be unintelligible for humans, and too inconsistent for animals, possibly.   In other words, nature would become irregular. 

A  problem here is that this is indistinguishable from a universe with no God at all, as many atheists have commented.   If there are no interventions, there is in effect, no God.   This is how many people see it!  If there are small interventions, as some Christians argue (somebody's ankle is healed, or God whispers in your ear), why not bigger ones, e.g. stop the holocaust?

wigginhall, are you a Christian? If so, how would you explain the points put forward by our non-Christian friends here?

I ask because I have not seen you argue for anything positive about Christianity for months. Perhaps I have missed those posts, in which case please accept my apologies.

[Alien]

According to Hope, Sassy et al their god is all powerful! He has power without contraint.

Yet power without constraint doesn't mean that said God can't choose not to exercise that power at any given point in time.

And when he does not intervene to stop a 9 year old being raped, we can say that your god is immoral.

Not with good reason though.

[Alien]

Er, my computer is having a very bad day (Windows 10 system restores not working, Office 2016 re-installed twice with SnagIt gone wrong, WinZip gone wrong and the printer not printing). I will reply to people's points here when I can. I've still got a home group to prepare before 8pm.

That is convenient.

Stupid statement, even with a on the end. It was not convenient at all. It is almost as stupid as saying this is the Faith-Sharing Board

[Alien]

Are you lot aware that this is the Faith-Sharing Board?

I'm aware that it's not.

Am looking for a large hole to jump into and hide.

[Alien]

Jesus taught 'repent and believe the Gospel' do you think a person who did not recognise their need to be saved would do that Jak?

Depends on the Christian.

This is from the man who says he doesn't understand what Jesus taught.

[Alien]

It is his nature to only do what is good.

How you know raping a nine year is objectively morally good or not. Don't ask me I can only give my subjective view.

I shan't then.

[Alien]

...

So its impossible to torture a child to death just for fun, because it must be 'for fun & gods version of greater good'.

No, you misunderstand again. The motive of the torturer is "just for fun." It says nothing about God's motives or knowledge.

According to you, god would not allow a child to be tortured just for the fun of the torturer,

No, I am not saying that. Please read my posts.

you are describing an event that you define as impossible.

Time for church.

[Shaker]

wigginhall, are you a Christian? If so, how would you explain the points put forward by our non-Christian friends here?

I ask because I have not seen you argue for anything positive about Christianity for months. Perhaps I have missed those posts, in which case please accept my apologies.

Wiggy isn't, AFAIK. He doesn't like laziness of mind and sloppy thinking. You haven't seen the posts you're referring to not because you missed them but because they weren't written.

Of course, you could always have used the 'search' function.

[Andy]

So you're not prepared to run with the hypothetical and you want the name of an actual person who is as close to being morally perfect as possible?

It would make it easier to discuss.

You're the one who is being difficult. If you run with the hypothetical it will make it easier.

Only if you can actually define what you mean. How morally perfect is "as morally perfect as possible"? Give some examples rather than just make vague statements.

As I said, neither is possible. I thought you were taking about someone, in general, who is a sinner and had "recognised their sinfulness, their just judgement and need for God's forgiveness".

You've asserted neither is possible even when I included in the statements that it's within the confines of what is possible. A or B, Alan?

Example needed to show that it is possible in the first place.

I'm not bothered with this anymore. I think it's redundant.

[Andy]

And the logical reason it is that is what? That sounds like a typical atheist rant totally lacking in reason. Of course proposing such a God does not demonstrate that God actually exists, but it does show that the existence of evil is not a defeater for the existence of God. Until you lot can see that this conversation is going to be fairly pointless.

Evil isn't the problem. Not being evil is.

And I would suggest daft sweeping statements like yours here are a good demonstration of being unreasonable.

[Andy]

...

So its impossible to torture a child to death just for fun, because it must be 'for fun & gods version of greater good'.

No, you misunderstand again. The motive of the torturer is "just for fun." It says nothing about God's motives or knowledge.

I recall that you'd agreed to drop the "just".

[Owlswing]

When the argument about the "witches" operating as the Devil's servants on Earth was in full spate during the Burning Times it was stated, by the Christian Church, that the Devil was only able to operate in the world by the permission of the Christian god.

Thus all the evil in the world only exists by permission of the Christian god - ergo - the Christian god IS evil considering the suffering he allows in this world and no amount of biblical quotes and verbal gymnastics is going to change that.

Take this to its logical conclusion and the IS exists and operates by the permission of the Christian god - according to some on here - for the greater good!

Greater good - CRAP - considering the number of Christians who have died at the hands of the IS!