WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?

[jakswan]

So, if Islam is true, then it would mean, I think, that I had deliberately suppressed the truth, in which case it would be tough.

Alternately, if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good. Cue question about applicability of that statement to the Christian God.

Either way you are left in a deficit of good.

Yes, the good coming from it is worth the evil. There is a heck of a lot of evil in the world, so, yes, the good to come from it is going to be absolutely wonderful.

You were right, if Christianity is true, then it might be that the Christian god is all-powerful, but not all good.

[floo]

So, if Islam is true, then it would mean, I think, that I had deliberately suppressed the truth, in which case it would be tough.

Alternately, if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good. Cue question about applicability of that statement to the Christian God.

Either way you are left in a deficit of good.

Yes, the good coming from it is worth the evil. There is a heck of a lot of evil in the world, so, yes, the good to come from it is going to be absolutely wonderful.

You were right, if Christianity is true, then it might be that the Christian god is all-powerful, but not all good.

If it exists and that is the case we should seek to exterminate it!

[floo]

So, if Islam is true, then it would mean, I think, that I had deliberately suppressed the truth, in which case it would be tough.

Alternately, if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good. Cue question about applicability of that statement to the Christian God.

Either way you are left in a deficit of good.

Yes, the good coming from it is worth the evil. There is a heck of a lot of evil in the world, so, yes, the good to come from it is going to be absolutely wonderful.

You were right, if Christianity is true, then it might be that the Christian god is all-powerful, but not all good.

If it exists and that is the case we should seek to exterminate it!

You've said that before.

Floo the human Dalek 

Not so much of the human! 

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

[Alien]

So, if Islam is true, then it would mean, I think, that I had deliberately suppressed the truth, in which case it would be tough.

Alternately, if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good. Cue question about applicability of that statement to the Christian God.

Either way you are left in a deficit of good.

Why?

Yes, the good coming from it is worth the evil. There is a heck of a lot of evil in the world, so, yes, the good to come from it is going to be absolutely wonderful.

You were right, if Christianity is true, then it might be that the Christian god is all-powerful, but not all good.

If Christianity is true then the Christian God is all-powerful and all-good. That is part of Christianity.

[Owlswing]

So, if Islam is true, then it would mean, I think, that I had deliberately suppressed the truth, in which case it would be tough.

Alternately, if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good. Cue question about applicability of that statement to the Christian God.

Either way you are left in a deficit of good.

Why?

Yes, the good coming from it is worth the evil. There is a heck of a lot of evil in the world, so, yes, the good to come from it is going to be absolutely wonderful.

You were right, if Christianity is true, then it might be that the Christian god is all-powerful, but not all good.

If Christianity is true then the Christian God is all-powerful and all-good. That is part of Christianity.

But you have said that he allows evil. How can he be all good?

[Alien]

So, if Islam is true, then it would mean, I think, that I had deliberately suppressed the truth, in which case it would be tough.

Alternately, if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good. Cue question about applicability of that statement to the Christian God.

Either way you are left in a deficit of good.

Why?

Yes, the good coming from it is worth the evil. There is a heck of a lot of evil in the world, so, yes, the good to come from it is going to be absolutely wonderful.

You were right, if Christianity is true, then it might be that the Christian god is all-powerful, but not all good.

If Christianity is true then the Christian God is all-powerful and all-good. That is part of Christianity.

But you have said that he allows evil. How can he be all good?

If he has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil.

[Owlswing]

So, if Islam is true, then it would mean, I think, that I had deliberately suppressed the truth, in which case it would be tough.

Alternately, if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good. Cue question about applicability of that statement to the Christian God.

Either way you are left in a deficit of good.

Why?

Yes, the good coming from it is worth the evil. There is a heck of a lot of evil in the world, so, yes, the good to come from it is going to be absolutely wonderful.

You were right, if Christianity is true, then it might be that the Christian god is all-powerful, but not all good.

If Christianity is true then the Christian God is all-powerful and all-good. That is part of Christianity.

But you have said that he allows evil. How can he be all good?

If he has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil.

Then, as far as I am concerned, he is evil - as it is he who determines what is moral for his adherents - he should follow the same rules.

[jakswan]

Why?

If Islam is true you are off to the fire forever.

If Christianity is true then the Christian God is all-powerful and all-good. That is part of Christianity.

I'm not seeing that, your words 'if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good', don't see why it doesn't apply to the Christian god.

I'm not seeing why the Christian god can't be evil, if say 2corrie's version is true then god allows people to suffer an infinite amount of evil. Its make torturing a child to death just for fun as insignificant as a parking offence.

[Andy]

Bump.

[Alien]

...

But you have said that he allows evil. How can he be all good?

If he has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil.

Then, as far as I am concerned, he is evil - as it is he who determines what is moral for his adherents - he should follow the same rules.

He does. However, his knowledge is far, far, far greater than our. We are greatly limited by what we know the results of our actions will be; he is not

[Alien]

Isaiah 45.7

I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

NET© I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.
NIV© I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
NASB© The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
ESV© I form light and create darkness,I make well-being and create calamity,I am the Lord, who does all these things.
NLT© I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.
BBE© I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
NKJV© I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things .’
NRSV© I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.

KJV© I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

I don't think this is saying that God created an actual thing, which we have assigned the name of "evil" (as a noun).

[Alien]

Why?

If Islam is true you are off to the fire forever.

What has that got to do with an overall deficit of good (do you mean for me or overall?)?

If Christianity is true then the Christian God is all-powerful and all-good. That is part of Christianity.

I'm not seeing that,

Er, an important part of Christianity is that God is all-powerful and all-good so if Christianity is true then God must be all-powerful and all-good.

What's the problem with that? Why don't you see the logical conclusion?

If P then Q.
P.
Therefore Q.

Modus Ponens.

 your words 'if Islam is true, then it might be that Allah is all-powerful, but not all good', don't see why it doesn't apply to the Christian god.

I'm not seeing why the Christian god can't be evil, if say 2corrie's version is true then god allows people to suffer an infinite amount of evil. Its make torturing a child to death just for fun as insignificant as a parking offence.

If God is evil then he is not the Christian God.

However, I do see your point about what would be the case if Islam is true. Would the Islamic God's nature be the basis of what is good? Maybe not because to be truly God, he would have to be the greatest conceivable being.

Not sure....

[Outrider]

However, I do see your point about what would be the case if Islam is true. Would the Islamic God's nature be the basis of what is good? Maybe not because to be truly God, he would have to be the greatest conceivable being.

Not sure....

Which brings you to the idea that there may not be a singular, definitive 'good', that may be a cultural judgment. To those raised in an Muslim culture, Islam is the epitome of good, and Allah is the embodiment of that.

That's not the same idea of good as the majority of Christians would accept, but then we see huge variation through Christianity (and, no doubt, through Islam as well).

It's almost as though 'right' and 'wrong' were cultural attributes dependent upon fundamental precepts...

O.

[Alien]

"If god (sic) only does good and god is the reason why everything exists, then the existence of everything is good." Why do you think that follows?

Through simple logic.

OK. Please demonstrate it.

I'll put it alongside another argument that uses the same valid form:

1 Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2 Everything god does is good.

3 The universe began to exist.
4 Everything exists because of god.

Therefore:
5 The universe has a cause.
6 Everything that exists is good.

Like I said - simple.

Good question. BTW, your premises and conclusions don't follow necessarily. I've numbered them for easy reference. 1, 2, 3, and 5 look OK to me. 4 should be "Everything in the universe exists because of God." Let's make that 4'

4' Everything in the universe exists because of God.

6 therefore becomes

6' Everything that exists in the universe is good.

No, the premises and conclusion are fine as they are.

No, they are not and I have explained why. You need to show that sin is tied in with the universe existing/that sin began to exist.

Please get your premises and conclusions sorted out then we can talk.

[Andy]

"If god (sic) only does good and god is the reason why everything exists, then the existence of everything is good." Why do you think that follows?

Through simple logic.

OK. Please demonstrate it.

I'll put it alongside another argument that uses the same valid form:

1 Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2 Everything god does is good.

3 The universe began to exist.
4 Everything exists because of god.

Therefore:
5 The universe has a cause.
6 Everything that exists is good.

Like I said - simple.

Good question. BTW, your premises and conclusions don't follow necessarily. I've numbered them for easy reference. 1, 2, 3, and 5 look OK to me. 4 should be "Everything in the universe exists because of God." Let's make that 4'

4' Everything in the universe exists because of God.

6 therefore becomes

6' Everything that exists in the universe is good.

No, the premises and conclusion are fine as they are.

No, they are not and I have explained why. You need to show that sin is tied in with the universe existing/that sin began to exist.

Please get your premises and conclusions sorted out then we can talk.

Would sin (not good) exist without God? Yes or no?

[Alien]

However, I do see your point about what would be the case if Islam is true. Would the Islamic God's nature be the basis of what is good? Maybe not because to be truly God, he would have to be the greatest conceivable being.

Not sure....

Which brings you to the idea that there may not be a singular, definitive 'good', that may be a cultural judgment. To those raised in an Muslim culture, Islam is the epitome of good, and Allah is the embodiment of that.

That's not the same idea of good as the majority of Christians would accept, but then we see huge variation through Christianity (and, no doubt, through Islam as well).

It's almost as though 'right' and 'wrong' were cultural attributes dependent upon fundamental precepts...

O.

OK, point taken. Let's go back to jakswan's argument. If the Islamic God does exist then his nature must be the ground of what is good.  How does that affect what jakswan termed a "deficit of good"?

[Alien]

...
Would sin (not good) exist without God? Yes or no?

No. Without God there would be nothing which could act in an evil manner.

My point is that evil is not "stuff"; evil is what people do or are. It is a description of actions (good or evil) or a person's character. I don't see how it could be said that it came into being.

The question which is the important one is whether God has a morally sufficient reason to allow evil things to happen. If he doesn't then I would say that means he himself is evil; if he does have a morally sufficient reason then that totally changes things.

[Andy]

"If god (sic) only does good and god is the reason why everything exists, then the existence of everything is good." Why do you think that follows?

Through simple logic.

OK. Please demonstrate it.

I'll put it alongside another argument that uses the same valid form:

1 Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2 Everything god does is good.

3 The universe began to exist.
4 Everything exists because of god.

Therefore:
5 The universe has a cause.
6 Everything that exists is good.

Like I said - simple.

Good question. BTW, your premises and conclusions don't follow necessarily. I've numbered them for easy reference. 1, 2, 3, and 5 look OK to me. 4 should be "Everything in the universe exists because of God." Let's make that 4'

4' Everything in the universe exists because of God.

6 therefore becomes

6' Everything that exists in the universe is good.

No, the premises and conclusion are fine as they are.

No, they are not and I have explained why. You need to show that sin is tied in with the universe existing/that sin began to exist.

Please get your premises and conclusions sorted out then we can talk.

Would sin (not good) exist without God? Yes or no?

No. Without God there would be nothing which could act in an evil manner.

My point is that evil is not "stuff"; evil is what people do or are.

So what? If it exists then it is included in everything and therefore must be good. How can people do evil if they exist because of good and every single tool they use to do stuff exists because of good? You can't add green to a painting if all the colours available on the palette are red.

And as a side note, you saying it's what people do is inconsistent with the idea that it's what motivates people to do it. If what people did was evil then it wouldn't happen because God would've stopped it as it contravenes the greater good.

[Outrider]

No. Without God there would be nothing which could act in an evil manner.

My point is that evil is not "stuff"; evil is what people do or are. It is a description of actions (good or evil) or a person's character. I don't see how it could be said that it came into being.

Doesn't that call into question the fundamental underpinning of Christianity? Why did Jesus need to be sacrificed for mankind bringing sin into the world?

The question which is the important one is whether God has a morally sufficient reason to allow evil things to happen. If he doesn't then I would say that means he himself is evil; if he does have a morally sufficient reason then that totally changes things.

Can there be a morally sufficient reason for doing evil? Or, to put it another way, is something evil if it has a morally justifiable outcome? What you're saying here, as I read it, is that some of the things that we think are evil might actually not be when seen as part of the bigger picture?

What I'd ask is 'If God is all powerful, why are his actions limited such that at any scale they appear evil?'

O.

[Rhiannon]

Presumably God isn't responsible for love or goodness then either?

[jakswan]

What has that got to do with an overall deficit of good (do you mean for me or overall?)?

For you, if you end up being tortured forever then you end up experiencing more bad than good.

Er, an important part of Christianity is that God is all-powerful and all-good so if Christianity is true then God must be all-powerful and all-good.

What's the problem with that? Why don't you see the logical conclusion?

If P then Q.
P.
Therefore Q.

Modus Ponens.

No the Christian god could exist and be evil, it only allows a certain amount of good for a greatest amount of evil.

If God is evil then he is not the Christian God.

Dismissed (asserted without evidence dismissed without evidence).

However, I do see your point about what would be the case if Islam is true. Would the Islamic God's nature be the basis of what is good? Maybe not because to be truly God, he would have to be the greatest conceivable being.

Not sure....

Ahh 'truly' again what does 'truly god' mean as opposed to 'god'.

[Alien]

...
Would sin (not good) exist without God? Yes or no?

No. Without God there would be nothing which could act in an evil manner.

My point is that evil is not "stuff"; evil is what people do or are.

So what? If it exists then it is included in everything and therefore must be good. How can people do evil if they exist because of good and every single tool they use to do stuff exists because of good? You can't add green to a painting if all the colours available on the palette are red.

And as a side note, you saying it's what people do is inconsistent with the idea that it's what motivates people to do it. If what people did was evil then it wouldn't happen because God would've stopped it as it contravenes the greater good.

But my point is that evil does not exist as a "thing", as an entity. Therefore, I can't see that it makes sense to speak of it coming into being. When a person, say, disobeys God's command to not murder and goes and murders someone, there is no such entity called "evil" which has come into being. He is going against God's command (and causing distress, pain, etc.) and we describe his action as "evil". Nothing got created here. When we say something like "there is great evil in the world", there isn't some entity called "evil", but a bunch of people doing wrong things. Nothing comes into being.

[Andy]

...
Would sin (not good) exist without God? Yes or no?

No. Without God there would be nothing which could act in an evil manner.

My point is that evil is not "stuff"; evil is what people do or are.

So what? If it exists then it is included in everything and therefore must be good. How can people do evil if they exist because of good and every single tool they use to do stuff exists because of good? You can't add green to a painting if all the colours available on the palette are red.

And as a side note, you saying it's what people do is inconsistent with the idea that it's what motivates people to do it. If what people did was evil then it wouldn't happen because God would've stopped it as it contravenes the greater good.

But my point is that evil does not exist as a "thing", as an entity. Therefore, I can't see that it makes sense to speak of it coming into being. When a person, say, disobeys God's command to not murder and goes and murders someone, there is no such entity called "evil" which has come into being. He is going against God's command (and causing distress, pain, etc.) and we describe his action as "evil". Nothing got created here. When we say something like "there is great evil in the world", there isn't some entity called "evil", but a bunch of people doing wrong things. Nothing comes into being.

Have beings always existed that can do evil and whose existence isn't dependent on God?

[Alien]

No. Without God there would be nothing which could act in an evil manner.

My point is that evil is not "stuff"; evil is what people do or are. It is a description of actions (good or evil) or a person's character. I don't see how it could be said that it came into being.

Doesn't that call into question the fundamental underpinning of Christianity? Why did Jesus need to be sacrificed for mankind bringing sin into the world?

No, for two reasons. There are evil actions, evil thoughts, and so on. Jesus died for our sins. He died for what you and I do/have done/will do.

As for him "need(ing) to be sacrificed for mankind bringing sin into the world" it is not bringing sin into the world per se, it is for us sinning.

The question which is the important one is whether God has a morally sufficient reason to allow evil things to happen. If he doesn't then I would say that means he himself is evil; if he does have a morally sufficient reason then that totally changes things.

Can there be a morally sufficient reason for doing evil? Or, to put it another way, is something evil if it has a morally justifiable outcome? What you're saying here, as I read it, is that some of the things that we think are evil might actually not be when seen as part of the bigger picture?

No, I'm not. God tells you and me to not murder. That is our duty. We are not omnipotent and cannot see the full results of our actions, so though God may allow such an act since he does know the full results of our actions and everyone else's, we don't and should stick with what he tells us (and which is usually what others, even non-Christians believe to be wrong though coming to that conclusion from a different angle). Thus me murdering someone is an evil action by me, but God may have a morally sufficient reason to allow me to do it. My action is going against what God tells me how to act, it is going against his commands. That is evil (though, such prohibitions usually are prohibitions which yer average atheist would agree with as well).

What I'd ask is 'If God is all powerful, why are his actions limited such that at any scale they appear evil?'

O.

Please demonstrate that his action "at any scale... appear evil".

[Alien]

...
Would sin (not good) exist without God? Yes or no?

No. Without God there would be nothing which could act in an evil manner.

My point is that evil is not "stuff"; evil is what people do or are.

So what? If it exists then it is included in everything and therefore must be good. How can people do evil if they exist because of good and every single tool they use to do stuff exists because of good? You can't add green to a painting if all the colours available on the palette are red.

And as a side note, you saying it's what people do is inconsistent with the idea that it's what motivates people to do it. If what people did was evil then it wouldn't happen because God would've stopped it as it contravenes the greater good.

But my point is that evil does not exist as a "thing", as an entity. Therefore, I can't see that it makes sense to speak of it coming into being. When a person, say, disobeys God's command to not murder and goes and murders someone, there is no such entity called "evil" which has come into being. He is going against God's command (and causing distress, pain, etc.) and we describe his action as "evil". Nothing got created here. When we say something like "there is great evil in the world", there isn't some entity called "evil", but a bunch of people doing wrong things. Nothing comes into being.

Have beings always existed that can do evil and whose existence isn't dependent on God?

No, but you miss my point again. I am saying that God created beings (however he did it) which, at some point, start to sin. So yes, creatures sin, God having created them. However, you point was that God created evil and, since God created everything which begins to exist, God created evil. I am saying that evil is not created (and neither is "good"). They are not created entities. They are descriptions of how people act and the effect those people have.

Must do some work...