Author Topic: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?  (Read 126950 times)

wigginhall

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #300 on: October 22, 2015, 05:33:02 PM »
Actually as covered previously you are saying that death is good. God created the universe as good as it can be surely? In which case my friend dying is part of that plan?

As to not knowing what will happen, fine. But what do the precepts of your religion say will happen? Will an atheist be off to fluffy marshmallow land? Dating you don't know is simply a way of ignoring the depravity ofof the deity you worship.

This is the real killer in Christian philosophy.   This must be the best of all possible worlds, because if there was a better one, God would have created it.   Well, I can't see any way round that one.   Christians tend to say that the evil produces good in the long run, but then the evil is for the best.   Well, we've been here before, but it still surprises me in black and white. 
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Andy

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #301 on: October 22, 2015, 05:37:09 PM »
Actually as covered previously you are saying that death is good. God created the universe as good as it can be surely? In which case my friend dying is part of that plan?

As to not knowing what will happen, fine. But what do the precepts of your religion say will happen? Will an atheist be off to fluffy marshmallow land? Dating you don't know is simply a way of ignoring the depravity ofof the deity you worship.

This is the real killer in Christian philosophy.   This must be the best of all possible worlds, because if there was a better one, God would have created it.   Well, I can't see any way round that one.   Christians tend to say that the evil produces good in the long run, but then the evil is for the best.   Well, we've been here before, but it still surprises me in black and white.
And when you analyse it further, it ceases to have any meaning to say that it's the best because it is the only one possible world god could create.

Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #302 on: October 22, 2015, 05:42:25 PM »
Actually as covered previously you are saying that death is good. God created the universe as good as it can be surely? In which case my friend dying is part of that plan?

As to not knowing what will happen, fine. But what do the precepts of your religion say will happen? Will an atheist be off to fluffy marshmallow land? Dating you don't know is simply a way of ignoring the depravity ofof the deity you worship.

The scriptures say that creation was very good. Death entered creation through the sin of Adam, something which we all inherit.

I say I do not know because I do not know, although I might say that anyone outside the visible confines of the Church is certainly in danger of damnation.
exactly, your religion tells you that eternal damnation follows from not following your little psychotic god. At least stand up for what you worship, as puny and mind-blowingly thuggish as it might be, than hide behind this mask of not knowing.

ad_orientem

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #303 on: October 22, 2015, 05:42:59 PM »
Actually as covered previously you are saying that death is good. God created the universe as good as it can be surely? In which case my friend dying is part of that plan?

As to not knowing what will happen, fine. But what do the precepts of your religion say will happen? Will an atheist be off to fluffy marshmallow land? Dating you don't know is simply a way of ignoring the depravity ofof the deity you worship.

Yes but Ado will be ok.

I don't say so with any certainty. It is merely my hope through faith.
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ad_orientem

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #304 on: October 22, 2015, 05:44:13 PM »
Actually as covered previously you are saying that death is good. God created the universe as good as it can be surely? In which case my friend dying is part of that plan?

As to not knowing what will happen, fine. But what do the precepts of your religion say will happen? Will an atheist be off to fluffy marshmallow land? Dating you don't know is simply a way of ignoring the depravity ofof the deity you worship.

The scriptures say that creation was very good. Death entered creation through the sin of Adam, something which we all inherit.

I say I do not know because I do not know, although I might say that anyone outside the visible confines of the Church is certainly in danger of damnation.
exactly, your religion tells you that eternal damnation follows from not following your little psychotic god. At least stand up for what you worship, as puny and mind-blowingly thuggish as it might be, than hide behind this mask of not knowing.

Then you do not understand what I said. I cannot say with any certainty, only that there is a danger, for God is the judge not me.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #305 on: October 22, 2015, 05:58:44 PM »
And your pusillanimous little god eternally condemns people and you worship it.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #306 on: October 22, 2015, 06:18:36 PM »
And your
 little god eternally condemns people and you worship it.

Have you any Biblical knowledge at all?

The New Testament abounds with examples of God's love for us:  here are some typical ones, out of dozens:

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 8:37-39 - No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved.



Romans 5:8 - but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Peter 5:6-7 - Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.



 http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/7-inspiring-bible-verses-about-gods-love-for-us-
 http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/7-inspiring-bible-verses-about-gods-love-for-us-

By the way: the adjective, "pusillanimous," is hardly appropriate.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:22:59 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #307 on: October 22, 2015, 06:21:59 PM »
But ad-o's god that I am talking about condemns people for eternity, so your post BA is a non sequitur
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:24:09 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #308 on: October 22, 2015, 06:39:11 PM »
BA,

Quote
Have you any Biblical knowledge at all?

The New Testament abounds with examples of God's love for us:  here are some typical ones, out of dozens:...

No doubt. How then would you explain the discrepancy between those words and the observable fact that the distribution of events we call "good" and "bad" is just as you'd expect it to be if there was instead a god who didn't give a tinker's cuss either way?

Or for that matter if there was no god at all?
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #309 on: October 22, 2015, 06:50:36 PM »
BA,

Quote
Have you any Biblical knowledge at all?

The New Testament abounds with examples of God's love for us:  here are some typical ones, out of dozens:...

No doubt. How then would you explain the discrepancy between those words and the observable fact that the distribution of events we call "good" and "bad" is just as you'd expect it to be if there was instead a god who didn't give a tinker's cuss either way?

Or for that matter if there was no god at all?

How is that comment relevant to God's love?  Loving does not necessarily mean He protects you from all ills.  You love your children/parents, etc, but that does not mean you protect them from all ills, throughout their lives.

Jesus was sent to enable us to inherit eternal life, by His sacrifice, despite our earthly transgressions.  What love is greater than that?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:53:20 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

torridon

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #310 on: October 22, 2015, 06:53:55 PM »
BA,

Quote
Have you any Biblical knowledge at all?

The New Testament abounds with examples of God's love for us:  here are some typical ones, out of dozens:...

No doubt. How then would you explain the discrepancy between those words and the observable fact that the distribution of events we call "good" and "bad" is just as you'd expect it to be if there was instead a god who didn't give a tinker's cuss either way?

Or for that matter if there was no god at all?

How is that comment relevant to God's love?  Loving does not necessarily mean He protects you from all ills.  You love your children/parents, etc, but that does not mean you protect them from all ills, throughout their lives.

That would be because we are human.  God is not, however; God is omnipotent, so they say.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:56:43 PM by torridon »

BashfulAnthony

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #311 on: October 22, 2015, 06:57:59 PM »
But ad-o's god that I am talking about condemns people for eternity, so your post BA is a non sequitur

Not the God that Jesus teaches us about.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #312 on: October 22, 2015, 06:59:30 PM »
BA,

Quote
How is that comment relevant to God's love?  Loving does not necessarily mean He protects you from all ills.  You love your children/parents, etc, but that does not mean you protect them from all ills, throughout their lives.

It's relevant because this "loving" god would be able to prevent harm but would be sitting on his hands instead. To use your analogy, if you could give your child a pill to cure her cancer but just decided not to do so would you really be a loving parent?

It's not that "He" doesn't protect us from "all" ills; it's that he doesn't protect us from any ills at all. Why for example do you not see fewer babies with brain cancer in Christian families than in non-Christian families? 

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Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #313 on: October 22, 2015, 06:59:58 PM »
Take it up with ad_o.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #314 on: October 22, 2015, 07:03:30 PM »
BA,

Quote
Jesus was sent to enable us to inherit eternal life, by His sacrifice, despite our earthly transgressions.  What love is greater than that?

Yes, I know that that's the claim (and that many other fine claims are available from other religions too) but the point is that these words bear no relation to the observable facts. Quote a book all you like, but there's no evidence whatever of this supposed love in the world as it appears to be.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

BashfulAnthony

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #315 on: October 22, 2015, 07:08:56 PM »
BA,

Quote
How is that comment relevant to God's love?  Loving does not necessarily mean He protects you from all ills.  You love your children/parents, etc, but that does not mean you protect them from all ills, throughout their lives.

It's relevant because this "loving" god would be able to prevent harm but would be sitting on his hands instead. To use your analogy, if you could give your child a pill to cure her cancer but just decided not to do so would you really be a loving parent?

It's not that "He" doesn't protect us from "all" ills; it's that he doesn't protect us from any ills at all. Why for example would you not see fewer babies with brain cancer in Christian families than in non-Christian families?

The world was given to us, to live in it as we might.  It is up to us to cope.  God is not a sort of Father Christmas figure, there to protect us from all ill.  If that was the case, we would be no more than His toy-things:  robots, without the freedom to do as we will, for better or worse.  As to such things as curing disease and illness:  if we applied our full energy, talents and money into it, we could solve our problems, in time. We could cope on this Earth, with the will to help and be positive.  How much time and energy, money and talent go into fighting wars and funding the development of ever more appalling weaponry, as one example of our failure to care for our own needs, when we could do so?   Don't blame God, blame Man. 
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #316 on: October 22, 2015, 07:16:52 PM »
BA,

Quote
The world was given to us, to live in it as we might.  It is up to us to cope.  God is not a sort of Father Christmas figure, there to protect us from all ill.  If that was the case, we would be no more than His toy-things:  robots, without the freedom to do as we will, for better or worse.  As to such things as curing disease and illness:  if we applied our full energy, talents and money into it, we could solve our problems, in time. We could cope on this Earth, with the will to help and be positive.  How much time and energy, money and talent go into fighting wars and funding the development of ever more appalling weaponry, as one example of our failure to care for our own needs, when we could do so?   Don't blame God, blame Man.

You're still not getting it. You claim a god who's "loving", yet there's no difference between the way the world obsevably is and either a god who's not loving at all or no god in the first place.

Your answer then is to blame people - presumably the baby with brain cancer has no-one to blame but himself? - but that's missing the bigger picture: why bother with this god at all when there's no detectable sign at all of him actually exercising this supposed love?

At least Wigg's restatement of the old argument - this must be the best of all worlds, so we must lack the judgement or knowledge to realise that the things we think to be bad are in fact good - has a rationale to it, but yours is just hopeless special pleading.
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ad_orientem

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #317 on: October 22, 2015, 07:22:38 PM »
But ad-o's god that I am talking about condemns people for eternity, so your post BA is a non sequitur

Not the God that Jesus teaches us about.

Clearly some will be. Christ himself speaks of this.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #318 on: October 22, 2015, 08:06:54 PM »
BA,

Quote
The world was given to us, to live in it as we might.  It is up to us to cope.  God is not a sort of Father Christmas figure, there to protect us from all ill.  If that was the case, we would be no more than His toy-things:  robots, without the freedom to do as we will, for better or worse.  As to such things as curing disease and illness:  if we applied our full energy, talents and money into it, we could solve our problems, in time. We could cope on this Earth, with the will to help and be positive.  How much time and energy, money and talent go into fighting wars and funding the development of ever more appalling weaponry, as one example of our failure to care for our own needs, when we could do so?   Don't blame God, blame Man.

You're still not getting it. You claim a god who's "loving", yet there's no difference between the way the world obsevably is and either a god who's not loving at all or no god in the first place.

Your answer then is to blame people - presumably the baby with brain cancer has no-one to blame but himself? - but that's missing the bigger picture: why bother with this god at all when there's no detectable sign at all of him actually exercising this supposed love?

At least Wigg's restatement of the old argument - this must be the best of all worlds, so we must lack the judgement or knowledge to realise that the things we think to be bad are in fact good - has a rationale to it, but yours is just hopeless special pleading.

Don't insult me by telling me 'I don't get it."  I get it perfectly well:  I have had a life-time to "get it."  It's your sad lack of insight and inability to look beyond your prejudices that is what's lacking.  If we spent our time, energy, talent, and money on the right things, we could eliminate such scourges as cancer.  We could cure our own ills, without the need for divine intervention.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:13:25 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Outrider

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #319 on: October 23, 2015, 09:40:34 AM »
I take on board what you say.  But it still doesn't really answer my main point:  why keep up your "crusade," If I may call it that, after so long?  Surely there is nothing new to say here.

But there might be new people to hear it. Even if there aren't, I enjoy the mental exercise of framing the arguments, identifying fallacies, spotting my own presumptions and assumptions at times.

Quote
On here, you are either talking to the converted (to your views), or to a small handful of theists, who by now, you must realise, are not going to be persuaded by you.  Why not seek a wider audience, and perhaps make some headway, or at least find what may be a different set of arguments to contend with.

This isn't the only place I comment :) It's a good place to practice, though.

Quote
May I say, that it is not much of an argument to sink to the level of the "fairy tales" approach.  You should be prepared to discuss at a higher intellectual level, if you seriously hope to persuade people of your views.

Except that there isn't a 'higher intellectual level' to religion. There's a wealth of historical evidence for the in depth analysis and navel-gazing intensity of religious study, and nothing new has been produced from it. There's still no evidence for a god, still no defence against theodicy, still no rationale by which any of the religions make sense. That's not intellectual, that's academic - a genuine intellectual would review the history of Theology and say "Hang on, we haven't gone anywhere in hundreds of years... let's jack this in and do something useful".

People believe these tales of magic and mighty heroes, whereas they no longer believe, say, the Norse or Greek tales of magic and mighty heroes: that's not a validation of the Big Boy's Book of Jewish Bedtime Stories, it's an indictment of the people that pretend there's a qualitative rather than quantitative difference.

You say, effectively, that it's rude to accuse Christianity of believing in fairy tales, and that may well be the case, but being rude isn't necessarily being wrong. This is a debate, and wording is chosen for the impact it has, both on the opposition and on the audience: describing religious claims as unevidence, unsubstantiated, unprovable or untestable is all entirely true, but lacks a certain impact.

"Christianity is a fairy-tale, and Jesus is just a hippy wizard", that's a phrase that's going to stick in the mind.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #320 on: October 23, 2015, 09:43:16 AM »
Perhaps, but then I don't have a problem with it (or more accurately I merely accept it). God does indeed allow evil to happen, at least for the time being, which is why we give thanks to God for all things (which to the unbeliever is a great scandal but to the believer not so for we know it is only a temporary state of affairs).

Except that, if God is all-powerful, why do we have to go through those periods of 'not-good'? God already knows who is good or bad, who deserves eternal life and happiness in heaven or cutting off/annihilation. Why torture people in the meantime? Why do we have to suffer?

That problem of evil, regardless of how you define the evil, still makes no sense. In fact, if you pitch the system as 'evil is not a thing in and of itself' then it makes less sense: if you need it to balance good there might be a necessity, if it's just that there's not enough good then... that's a systems issue.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Outrider

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #321 on: October 23, 2015, 09:48:13 AM »
The scriptures say that creation was very good. Death entered creation through the sin of Adam, something which we all inherit.

Adam is a myth. In the absence of an actual Adam, in the absence of that 'original sin' event, what's the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice? What's the nature of sin? Is it intrinsically part of humanity, and therefore part of God's plan? Even if it's not intrinsically part of humanity, it's part of the creation that God made - surely he must have foreseen the possibility that it could 'get into' humanity? How is his design error my fault? Why can I be punished - temporally or eternally - for it?

Even if Adam weren't a myth, why does God hold me responsible for what Adam did? Even if my 'sinfulness' is genuine, the capacity for it was something I had no control over, why am I liable for damnation?

This entire concept makes no sense, whichever way you cut it.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

floo

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #322 on: October 23, 2015, 10:34:54 AM »
Except that there isn't a 'higher intellectual level' to religion.

Because it is the same genre as fairy tales, imo.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #323 on: October 23, 2015, 10:48:22 AM »
Except that there isn't a 'higher intellectual level' to religion.

Because it is the same genre as fairy tales, imo.

What a truly shallow, if not actually ignorant, comment.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #324 on: October 23, 2015, 10:56:40 AM »
BA,

Quote
Don't insult me by telling me 'I don't get it."  I get it perfectly well:  I have had a life-time to "get it."

Then I fear that you've wasted your time as clearly you don't get it at all. I merely asked how you would propose to bridge the gap between the observable fact of no evidence at all for a loving god (or indeed any god at all) and your claims to the contrary.

Imagine for example that I insisted that people could fly at will on broomsticks. You might reply to the effect that there's no evidence for it, and then I'd hit you with, "Do you even know any Rowlingology? Here for examples are abundant examples of broomstick flying from the Harry Potter books" etc.

Presumably you'd say something like, "yes I know some books make that claim, but there's no correlation between the claim and the observable facts. QED."

Do you see the problem now?

Anything?

Quote
It's your sad lack of insight and inability to look beyond your prejudices that is what's lacking.

Perhaps. On the other hand, as there's no evidence of this supposed god's supposed love - babies in christian families get cancer just as frequently as babies in non-christian families do after all - maybe instead it's your own "sad lack of insight and inability to look beyond your prejudices" that's the problem after all.

Quote
If we spent our time, energy, talent, and money on the right things, we could eliminate such scourges as cancer.  We could cure our own ills, without the need for divine intervention.

That could be true - but then why bother with believing in a loving god when these outcomes would be nothing to do with "Him"?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 11:02:10 AM by bluehillside »
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