Author Topic: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?  (Read 126858 times)

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #350 on: October 23, 2015, 05:01:08 PM »
BA

Perfectly good response, for which you have no answer.

You are beaten, you position is logically defeated.

You offer nothing but insult.

What position? If you think I have no answer, then why keep asking me?  Doesn't seem logical to me.    ;)

So that it finally sinks in to you the hard of learning, that your position is logically flawed.

You are not very quick on the uptake so it has to be repeated many times.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #351 on: October 23, 2015, 05:02:46 PM »
BA

Perfectly good response, for which you have no answer.

You are beaten, you position is logically defeated.

You offer nothing but insult.

What position? If you think I have no answer, then why keep asking me?  Doesn't seem logical to me.    ;)

So that it finally sinks in to you the hard of learning, that your position is logically flawed.

You are not very quick on the uptake so it has to be repeated many times.

Please don't insult me, then accuse me of being insulting.  Can't you see the fault in that?
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #352 on: October 23, 2015, 05:17:10 PM »
BA

Perfectly good response, for which you have no answer.

You are beaten, you position is logically defeated.

You offer nothing but insult.

What position? If you think I have no answer, then why keep asking me?  Doesn't seem logical to me.    ;)

So that it finally sinks in to you the hard of learning, that your position is logically flawed.

You are not very quick on the uptake so it has to be repeated many times.

Please don't insult me, then accuse me of being insulting.  Can't you see the fault in that?

More evasion.

Can you answer the question or not.

I bet you like to keep doing this so that the questions just get lost in all this nonsense that you post.

If you cannot answer a direct question, just keep posting that you are insulted.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #353 on: October 23, 2015, 05:24:37 PM »
BA

Perfectly good response, for which you have no answer.

You are beaten, you position is logically defeated.

You offer nothing but insult.

What position? If you think I have no answer, then why keep asking me?  Doesn't seem logical to me.    ;)

So that it finally sinks in to you the hard of learning, that your position is logically flawed.

You are not very quick on the uptake so it has to be repeated many times.

Please don't insult me, then accuse me of being insulting.  Can't you see the fault in that?

More evasion.

Can you answer the question or not.

I bet you like to keep doing this so that the questions just get lost in all this nonsense that you post.

If you cannot answer a direct question, just keep posting that you are insulted.

Do you realise what a hectoring manner you have?  if I choose to engage with you to answer a question, I will, but not on demand.  And if I choose not to, then leave me, and you can  put whatever slant on that to suit yourself.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #354 on: October 23, 2015, 06:52:55 PM »
BA,

Quote
I simply will not respond to an infantile person who talks in terms of "fairies."

Again you miss the point entirely. The outcome of the argument - god, fairies, whatever - isn't the issue. Rather the point of the analogy is to show that when the arguments you attempt for god work equally well for fairies then your arguments are probably bad ones.

It's a simple enough point I'd have though so why consistently aim your fire a the wrong target?

Now for all I know you do have one or more arguments for your god that don’t work just as well for fairies, but what the analogy does is to allow us to dismiss at a stroke the various arguments that you and others attempt (“but that’s my faith”, “there are claims about the object of my belief written in a book”, “anything’s possible/you can’t disprove it”, “my belief gives my life meaning”, “my belief fills the explanatory gap in areas for which I have no better explanation” etc etc) without endlessly having to explain why they’re bad arguments.

So there’s the filter for you – if ever you do feel like attempting an argument for an objectively true god just run it past the fairy test first and junk it if it fails and bring it to the table if it doesn’t.

Just a warning by the way though – I’ve yet to hear a theological argument for a god that doesn’t work for fairies, but you never know – you could surprise us yet!


Quote
Grow up!

See above.

Quote
Anyway, for you and that other guy to suggest that you have imagination in the sense that Einstein was suggesting is both laughable, and absurdly arrogant.

Yes it would be. Fortunately though, neither of us have done any such thing. What we have done though is to show that you misunderstood Einstein's point - imagination is essential all right, but it's no substitute for verification.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 07:32:47 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #355 on: October 24, 2015, 12:04:41 AM »
BA,

Quote
I simply will not respond to an infantile person who talks in terms of "fairies."

Again you miss the point entirely. The outcome of the argument - god, fairies, whatever - isn't the issue. Rather the point of the analogy is to show that when the arguments you attempt for god work equally well for fairies then your arguments are probably bad ones.

Let's hope your faereology isn't as dire as your Leprechology....
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 12:34:08 AM by Antitheism...The Carbon Monoxide of reasonable debate. »

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #356 on: October 24, 2015, 09:55:52 AM »
I simply will not respond to an infantile person who talks in terms of "fairies."  Grow up!  Anyway, for you and that other guy to suggest that you have imagination in the sense that Einstein was suggesting is both laughable, and absurdly arrogant.

But if he said 'angels' would it make a difference? Flying winged people with magical powers from old books. As a non-believer, what can you show me that is the difference, qualitatively?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

floo

  • Guest
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #357 on: October 24, 2015, 11:51:55 AM »
Angels and fairies both have wings, don't they? ;D

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #358 on: October 24, 2015, 01:28:54 PM »
BA will probably not answer that question, will consider it 'infantile', but will not realise that by calling others', particularly atheists' views, infantile, he projects on to others his own failings.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #359 on: October 24, 2015, 01:39:24 PM »
BA,

Quote
Let's hope your faereology isn't as dire as your Leprechology....

If it's any comfort to you BA, you're not the only one fundamentally to miss the point of the analogy (see above).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 02:17:25 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #360 on: October 25, 2015, 10:05:35 PM »
BA,

Quote
Let's hope your faereology isn't as dire as your Leprechology....

If it's any comfort to you BA, you're not the only one fundamentally to miss the point of the analogy (see above).
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #361 on: October 26, 2015, 12:03:25 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #362 on: October 26, 2015, 03:31:22 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #363 on: October 26, 2015, 03:33:04 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

I guess its only a bad thing if you do not also believe in fairies.

Do you believe in fairies?

If not, then you should not believe in your god either. That is the point.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #364 on: October 26, 2015, 03:36:10 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

I guess its only a bad thing if you do not also believe in fairies.

Do you believe in fairies?

If not, then you should not believe in your god either. That is the point.

Be Negative......

Firstly, You haven't actually addressed the questions.
Secondly, I was intending that the Organ Grinder fielded the question......not the monkey.

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #365 on: October 26, 2015, 03:39:53 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

I guess its only a bad thing if you do not also believe in fairies.

Do you believe in fairies?

If not, then you should not believe in your god either. That is the point.

Be Negative......

Firstly, You haven't actually addressed the questions.
Secondly, I was intending that the Organ Grinder fielded the question......not the monkey.

It answers the question as to why the argument is bad if it also works for fairies.

Do you understand this, or do you need further explanation.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #366 on: October 26, 2015, 03:44:44 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

I guess its only a bad thing if you do not also believe in fairies.

Do you believe in fairies?

If not, then you should not believe in your god either. That is the point.

Be Negative......

Firstly, You haven't actually addressed the questions.
Secondly, I was intending that the Organ Grinder fielded the question......not the monkey.

It answers the question as to why the argument is bad if it also works for fairies.

Do you understand this, or do you need further explanation.
No it doesn't address anything.......You and indeed Hillside are merely stating that any argument made for God which is also suitable for fairies is a bad argument.

That is a positive assertion....or maybe even more than one.

It is therefore incumbent on you to answer three things:

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #367 on: October 26, 2015, 03:48:03 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

I guess its only a bad thing if you do not also believe in fairies.

Do you believe in fairies?

If not, then you should not believe in your god either. That is the point.

Be Negative......

Firstly, You haven't actually addressed the questions.
Secondly, I was intending that the Organ Grinder fielded the question......not the monkey.

It answers the question as to why the argument is bad if it also works for fairies.

Do you understand this, or do you need further explanation.
No it doesn't address anything.......You and indeed Hillside are merely stating that any argument made for God which is also suitable for fairies is a bad argument.

That is a positive assertion....or maybe even more than one.

It is therefore incumbent on you to answer three things:

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

Take one thing at a time.

I repeat, it's ONLY a bad thing if you believe in god AND NOT fairies.
Given that the arguments are the same you should react the same way to both.

Do you understand now?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #368 on: October 26, 2015, 03:57:08 PM »
Vlunderingaboutlikeabullinachinashop,

Quote
Really Hillside and what actually is your point?

Which part of Reply 361 is confusing you?
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

I guess its only a bad thing if you do not also believe in fairies.

Do you believe in fairies?

If not, then you should not believe in your god either. That is the point.

Be Negative......

Firstly, You haven't actually addressed the questions.
Secondly, I was intending that the Organ Grinder fielded the question......not the monkey.

It answers the question as to why the argument is bad if it also works for fairies.

Do you understand this, or do you need further explanation.
No it doesn't address anything.......You and indeed Hillside are merely stating that any argument made for God which is also suitable for fairies is a bad argument.

That is a positive assertion....or maybe even more than one.

It is therefore incumbent on you to answer three things:

Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

Take one thing at a time.

I repeat, it's ONLY a bad thing if you believe in god AND NOT fairies.
Given that the arguments are the same you should react the same way to both.

Do you understand now?

No you are still merely saying that the arguments are the same without saying what they are.

Is this because you are dishonest or stupid?

Now, let's try this once more.

What is the argument?

Who is making it?

To which one has to add why, just because you think the argument is the same, that there cannot be arguments that are not the same?

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #369 on: October 26, 2015, 04:04:06 PM »
Vlad,

I am not talking about the argument as I have not heard it for a while.

The point I am making is that:

If an argument for god also works for fairies, you MUST either believe both or not believe both. You cannot believe one and reject the other.

Can you agree with that?
Note I have not said what the arguments are, just that if they are equivalent, then your reaction to them MUST be the same, otherwise you are not logical.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #370 on: October 26, 2015, 04:09:43 PM »
Vlad,

I am not talking about the argument as I have not heard it for a while.

The point I am making is that:

If an argument for god also works for fairies, you MUST either believe both or not believe both. You cannot believe one and reject the other.


And again....What is this argument?

And why can you not see that you needn't believe in things just on the strength or failure of one argument?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #371 on: October 26, 2015, 04:12:52 PM »
Vlunderingabouttheplace,

Quote
OK....So you seem to be assuming that having the same argument as a fairy is a bad thing.

It's a bad thing for the conclusion "god" if the argument works equally well for the conclusion "fairy", yes.   

Quote
Firstly, why is it a bad thing?

It's a bad thing because it leads to the relativism of "anything I assert to be true because of these arguments is necessarily true for you too", and worse yet many of those claims deny the possibility of the others - a logical impossibility. 

Quote
Secondly, who is making the same arguments?

You do - often in fact, and so do many others here. "It gives my life meaning", "you can't disprove it", "I intuit it" etc etc all qualify as bad arguments for an objectively true god. 

Quote
Thirdly, what IS the actual argument you are talking about?

There are many of them - quite a few of which you cling to (or used to cling to) as a man clings to a plutonium parachute in the hope that it'll prevent him from crashing to the ground. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 04:15:56 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #372 on: October 26, 2015, 04:14:46 PM »
Vlad,

I am not talking about the argument as I have not heard it for a while.

The point I am making is that:

If an argument for god also works for fairies, you MUST either believe both or not believe both. You cannot believe one and reject the other.


And again....What is this argument?

And why can you not see that you needn't believe in things just on the strength or failure of one argument?

For now forget the argument, they can come later.

What you need to understand is the concept that if works for both then you HAVE to ACCEPT both.

Simple example (not the real argument)

People have believed in god for hundreds of years, therefore god exists.

People have believed in fairies for hundreds of years, therefore fairies exist.

IF you think that people believing stuff is a good argument, then it works for god AND fairies.

All you need to understand for now is the concept.
Later of course, you supply the arguments for god, and we see if they also work for fairies.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33186
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #373 on: October 26, 2015, 04:16:52 PM »
Vlad,

I am not talking about the argument as I have not heard it for a while.

The point I am making is that:

If an argument for god also works for fairies, you MUST either believe both or not believe both. You cannot believe one and reject the other.


And again....What is this argument?

And why can you not see that you needn't believe in things just on the strength or failure of one argument?

For now forget the argument

LOL.


BeRational

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8645
Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #374 on: October 26, 2015, 04:18:10 PM »
Vlad,

I am not talking about the argument as I have not heard it for a while.

The point I am making is that:

If an argument for god also works for fairies, you MUST either believe both or not believe both. You cannot believe one and reject the other.


And again....What is this argument?

And why can you not see that you needn't believe in things just on the strength or failure of one argument?

For now forget the argument

LOL.

Do you understand the concept though?

It really is simple, so simple a child could understand it.

What are you finding so difficult?

I see gullible people, everywhere!