Author Topic: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?  (Read 126961 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #500 on: October 29, 2015, 02:13:10 PM »
Can't answer for Owlswing but the problem of omniscience is that it means there can only be what there is. It means no choice for the deity and makes everything a mere parade of time. That's fair enough as a view but unless you want to shout out HI Ho Silver Calvin, it makes other generalised Christian theologies logically ridiculous.
Not sure what you are getting at here.

We do have though the philosophical attraction of ''the one'', ''the ultimate'', ''the final'', ''the ground'' within monotheism. Even polytheisms have a gaffer God or operate within a heavenly context or elevated state which satisfies this ultimate philosophical goal.

I'm thinking that a trinity might offset some of your objections.

Am I reading you right?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #501 on: October 29, 2015, 02:15:06 PM »
Owlswing,

Quote
You are supposed to be intelligent...

Pardon?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #502 on: October 29, 2015, 02:16:25 PM »


I diminish my gods (please note the plural) or my godesses (please note the feminine AND the plural) for no-one - you or bluehillside.

How could you diminish them given what you say about them? If you are asserting they have influence then I would have thought that points to a reality which you are denying in your presentation.



They influence us by showing in the way that the natural world works how we should live within that world to the best advantage of all living things.


And how do they do that?

They have given us a world that works - by watching it in operation we can see how climate works, how humans interact for the better or worse and leave us to decide if we are going to act for the improvement of the world we live in or not.
 
How do you know it was a they and not a singular reality?

Becasue I am a staunch believer that no-one - not even a god/goddess - can know or do everything!
And what is that based on?

You are supposed to be intelligent - work this one out for yourself it ain't that hard!
I had the feeling with you that what was a promising dialogue would rapidly descend on your part into abuse......I have experienced such from pagans before which would suggest that you might have something but you cannot really express what it is while rubbishing other's beliefs..........Ah well.

Owlswing

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #503 on: October 29, 2015, 02:16:53 PM »
Can't answer for Owlswing but the problem of omniscience is that it means there can only be what there is. It means no choice for the deity and makes everything a mere parade of time. That's fair enough as a view but unless you want to shout out HI Ho Silver Calvin, it makes other generalised Christian theologies logically ridiculous.
Not sure what you are getting at here.

We do have though the philosophical attraction of ''the one'', ''the ultimate'', ''the final'', ''the ground'' within monotheism. Even polytheisms have a gaffer God or operate within a heavenly context or elevated state which satisfies this ultimate philosophical goal.

I'm thinking that a trinity might offset some of your objections.

Am I reading you right?

No - because at the time of the creation there was only the Father - the son and holy ghost came later! Lots later!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #504 on: October 29, 2015, 02:17:47 PM »
Owlswing,

Quote
You are supposed to be intelligent...

Pardon?
Oh Look, The Argos version of AC Grayling has shown up.

Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #505 on: October 29, 2015, 02:18:51 PM »
Can't answer for Owlswing but the problem of omniscience is that it means there can only be what there is. It means no choice for the deity and makes everything a mere parade of time. That's fair enough as a view but unless you want to shout out HI Ho Silver Calvin, it makes other generalised Christian theologies logically ridiculous.
Not sure what you are getting at here.

We do have though the philosophical attraction of ''the one'', ''the ultimate'', ''the final'', ''the ground'' within monotheism. Even polytheisms have a gaffer God or operate within a heavenly context or elevated state which satisfies this ultimate philosophical goal.

I'm thinking that a trinity might offset some of your objections.

Am I reading you right?
No. If a there is anything omniscient, then this is the only way things can be.

Owlswing

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #506 on: October 29, 2015, 02:19:25 PM »


I diminish my gods (please note the plural) or my godesses (please note the feminine AND the plural) for no-one - you or bluehillside.

How could you diminish them given what you say about them? If you are asserting they have influence then I would have thought that points to a reality which you are denying in your presentation.



They influence us by showing in the way that the natural world works how we should live within that world to the best advantage of all living things.


And how do they do that?

They have given us a world that works - by watching it in operation we can see how climate works, how humans interact for the better or worse and leave us to decide if we are going to act for the improvement of the world we live in or not.
 
How do you know it was a they and not a singular reality?

Becasue I am a staunch believer that no-one - not even a god/goddess - can know or do everything!
And what is that based on?

You are supposed to be intelligent - work this one out for yourself it ain't that hard!
I had the feeling with you that what was a promising dialogue would rapidly descend on your part into abuse......I have experienced such from pagans before which would suggest that you might have something but you cannot really express what it is while rubbishing other's beliefs..........Ah well.

You are a real case - your response is rubbish - what you were hoping was that i was going to post somethimng that you could make fun of, rubbish, or otherwise diss.

I didn't play fair - I played to your rules and you don't like it!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #507 on: October 29, 2015, 02:20:23 PM »
Can't answer for Owlswing but the problem of omniscience is that it means there can only be what there is. It means no choice for the deity and makes everything a mere parade of time. That's fair enough as a view but unless you want to shout out HI Ho Silver Calvin, it makes other generalised Christian theologies logically ridiculous.
Not sure what you are getting at here.

We do have though the philosophical attraction of ''the one'', ''the ultimate'', ''the final'', ''the ground'' within monotheism. Even polytheisms have a gaffer God or operate within a heavenly context or elevated state which satisfies this ultimate philosophical goal.

I'm thinking that a trinity might offset some of your objections.

Am I reading you right?

No - because at the time of the creation there was only the Father - the son and holy ghost came later! Lots later!
You don't understand the Bible or the trinity then.

''In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God...........'' and all that.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #508 on: October 29, 2015, 02:23:55 PM »
Can't answer for Owlswing but the problem of omniscience is that it means there can only be what there is. It means no choice for the deity and makes everything a mere parade of time. That's fair enough as a view but unless you want to shout out HI Ho Silver Calvin, it makes other generalised Christian theologies logically ridiculous.
Not sure what you are getting at here.

We do have though the philosophical attraction of ''the one'', ''the ultimate'', ''the final'', ''the ground'' within monotheism. Even polytheisms have a gaffer God or operate within a heavenly context or elevated state which satisfies this ultimate philosophical goal.

I'm thinking that a trinity might offset some of your objections.

Am I reading you right?
No. If a there is anything omniscient, then this is the only way things can be.
Really, how?.......and aren't you confusing omniscience with omnipotence in the way ...er, people do?

Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #509 on: October 29, 2015, 02:28:04 PM »
No, nothing to do with omnipotence. If there is an 'entity' that has omniscience then everything must only happen one way.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #510 on: October 29, 2015, 02:36:18 PM »
No, nothing to do with omnipotence. If there is an 'entity' that has omniscience then everything must only happen one way.
Have happened....surely.

Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #511 on: October 29, 2015, 02:37:13 PM »
No, nothing to do with omnipotence. If there is an 'entity' that has omniscience then everything must only happen one way.
Have happened....surely.
omniscience abolishes tense

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #512 on: October 29, 2015, 02:40:33 PM »
No, nothing to do with omnipotence. If there is an 'entity' that has omniscience then everything must only happen one way.
Have happened....surely.
omniscience abolishes tense
How, since it is only possible to know things which have happened.

Nearly Sane

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #513 on: October 29, 2015, 02:44:08 PM »
Then you are redefining omniscience and agreeing with Owlswing.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #514 on: October 29, 2015, 02:44:39 PM »
StillVlunderingaboutlikeabladderedbadger,

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No....You are peddling the myth again that I am dismissing Owlswings faith and experience. You are the man for that kind of dismissal not me.

How is it even possible that you get every damn thing so fantastically ass-backwards wrong every single time? That’s NOT what I did at all – what I actually did was to ask how you or he or anyone else would know whether these things are real. I made no comment whatever on what he believes, you believe or anyone else believes.

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If anyone is giving their beliefs privilege it is you, partly through your insistence at being in the inquisitorial seat and in presenting your position as axiomatically the unalloyed truth.

I guess this just making shit up and then throwing it at your interlocutor approach makes you happy in some odd way, but can you really not see how foolish it makes you? Really?   

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Read the posts Owlswing says his gods are real but only real in his faith. He diminishes the status of his god to impress and keep in with the likes of you.

No, he’s just smarter than you so he realises that he cannot overreach by claiming that his personal belief is by some entirely unknown process also somehow an objective truth for me too. You would learn a lot from him if you could grasp this.

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In terms of your argument appealing to ridiculousness. They all do.
If not to storks then Leprechauns.

Exactly – they ALL do – storks, leprechauns, your god, whatever. It’s STILL your problem to show how the method you use of “intuiting” your way to your god cannot be also be used by others to “intuit” their way to different beliefs entirely.

You can duck and dive all you want, but it’s still your problem nonetheless. 

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If you were put on trial for lying about these so called ''convictions'' about storks and Leprechauns  you would be pronounced guilty of taking the piss based on the evidence of everything else you write.

You of all people are accusing someone ELSE of lying!!!???!!! Good grief.

Either way, as ever you miss the point – it’s not that I seriously believe in stork theory, it’s that you have no defence against it when you insist that the rest of us accept an evidence bar set so low for your god too. It's either all of them or none of them, until and unless you FINALLY manage to suggest a reason to privilege your god belief above my stork belief.

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It also confirms your assumed position of special privilege.

The only one claiming special privilege for his belief here is you remember? Remember that you dismiss the rest as “ridiculous” but for some reason you cannot explain you also expect us to exclude your personal belief from that set.

That’s what “privilege” means FFS!

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in short Hillside cut the hypocritical humbug about special privilege.

A hypocrisy you’ve yet to demonstrate, but as empty assertion seems to be your stock in trade that’s all we’ll get I guess.

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Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

Couldn’t you?

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The sensible money is on not making category fuck ups like you make them.

It’s possible that I do of course, but it’s also the case that you’ve never managed to identify one. By all means finally figure out what it means and then have another try though.

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..maybe that is why you languish here like a Budget Christopher Hitchens.

I’ll take that over a budget Ray Comfort any day thanks.

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Sad considering that niche is already occupied by.....er, Christopher Hitchens.

What’s sadder I think is how entirely oblivious you are to your limitations and dishonesty. Just for once why not try actually to think about what’s actually being said and actually try to answer that rather than ignore it or answer your straw man version of it?

Would it really kill you just to try for Pete’s sake?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #515 on: October 29, 2015, 02:46:30 PM »
Then you are redefining omniscience and agreeing with Owlswing.
Not really seeing God is at the end of time.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #516 on: October 29, 2015, 02:58:02 PM »


Quote
Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

BeRational

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #517 on: October 29, 2015, 02:59:33 PM »


Quote
Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

You still have not answered the question I posed about understanding the concept of comparing two or more arguments that are the same?

I cannot believe you cannot understand the simple concept, but you appear not to.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #518 on: October 29, 2015, 03:03:04 PM »


Quote
Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

You still have not answered the question I posed about understanding the concept of comparing two or more arguments that are the same?

I cannot believe you cannot understand the simple concept, but you appear not to.
It was a red herring which I was not prepared to entertain as I recall.

BeRational

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #519 on: October 29, 2015, 03:08:20 PM »


Quote
Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

You still have not answered the question I posed about understanding the concept of comparing two or more arguments that are the same?

I cannot believe you cannot understand the simple concept, but you appear not to.
It was a red herring which I was not prepared to entertain as I recall.

It's not a red herring. It's absolutely gets to the heart of the matter.

Perhaps that's why you do not like it, as it shows your beliefs for what they are?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #520 on: October 29, 2015, 03:10:00 PM »


Quote
Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

You still have not answered the question I posed about understanding the concept of comparing two or more arguments that are the same?

I cannot believe you cannot understand the simple concept, but you appear not to.
It was a red herring which I was not prepared to entertain as I recall.

It's not a red herring. It's absolutely gets to the heart of the matter.

Perhaps that's why you do not like it, as it shows your beliefs for what they are?
I am within my rights not to entertain your red herring as it constitutes what I see as sneaky antitheist practice.

BeRational

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #521 on: October 29, 2015, 03:25:47 PM »


Quote
Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

You still have not answered the question I posed about understanding the concept of comparing two or more arguments that are the same?

I cannot believe you cannot understand the simple concept, but you appear not to.
It was a red herring which I was not prepared to entertain as I recall.

It's not a red herring. It's absolutely gets to the heart of the matter.

Perhaps that's why you do not like it, as it shows your beliefs for what they are?
I am within my rights not to entertain your red herring as it constitutes what I see as sneaky antitheist practice.

It's not a red herring just a logical approach to analysis of competing claims.

You can dismiss it, but it just makes you wrong.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #522 on: October 29, 2015, 03:28:26 PM »
Vlunderingabout,

Quote
My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

Please stop lying, it's getting dull.

Asking you for the basis on which you dismiss my belief in stork theory dismantles your PM schtick perfectly well, which is presumably why you refuse point blank even to attempt an answer. You seem to be just smart enough enough to know what it does to your PM argument and just dishonest enough to keep ignoring it in the hope no-one notices. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #523 on: October 29, 2015, 03:30:08 PM »


Quote
Now back to where you think I have been debunked.

How long have you got - it’s happened hundreds of times, only you’ve just ignored or misrepresented it when it has. You could always start by finally telling us why you dismiss my belief in stork theory though.

My Goodness. The Iceland economy pack Daniel Dennett has gone for a double Hillside .......not only does he refuse to tell me where I've been dismantled for the fourth time, he's tried to get me to dismantle one of his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What class?

You still have not answered the question I posed about understanding the concept of comparing two or more arguments that are the same?

I cannot believe you cannot understand the simple concept, but you appear not to.
It was a red herring which I was not prepared to entertain as I recall.

It's not a red herring. It's absolutely gets to the heart of the matter.

Perhaps that's why you do not like it, as it shows your beliefs for what they are?
I am within my rights not to entertain your red herring as it constitutes what I see as sneaky antitheist practice.

It's not a red herring just a logical approach to analysis of competing claims.

You can dismiss it, but it just makes you wrong.
No it was an attempt to establish that something was ridiculous and then merely assert that God was like it. You never actually established a categorical equality between God and the thing you were saying. I believe it was the fallacy of argumentum ad ridiculum.

Try again.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: WHAT makes a person saved in Christ Jesus?
« Reply #524 on: October 29, 2015, 03:32:00 PM »
Vluderingallovertheshop,

Quote
I am within my rights not to entertain your red herring as it constitutes what I see as sneaky antitheist practice.

You're perfectly entitled to ignore anything you find too uncomfortable to respond to - after all, you're the past master at it.

It takes quite some brass neck though for you to complain that others don't reply to you don't you think?
"Don't make me come down there."

God