Seasons

[Samuel]

Well I am shocked!  Two actual pagans bringing me into the fold!

ETA: Nearly Sane did me the honour of putting my earlier overlong ramblings on the 'Forum best bits' section where Gonnagle wondered what I meant by specifying English nature (rather than nature in general). Rather than derail the thread by answering the question there I thought I'd do so here.

I was specific about English nature not because I mean any disservice to the starker, craggier landscapes of Wales (where I've spent a lot of time) or Scotland but simply because, given my upbringing, it's the English landscape that I automatically think of when I think of nature. It's like word association - nature means England, even my native East Midlands specifically. There are several very (and justly) celebrated explorers and nature writers - Doughty; Wilfred Thesiger; T.E. Lawrence; Edward Abbey, those sorts of people - who fell in love with deserts. By innate temperament, taste, preference, inclination, whatever you care to call it, that's not the sort of landscape to which I would respond as they did, since my tastes run to what I suppose you might call a very European landscape - bosomy fields and valleys, rivers, lakes, woods and the like. Green places, green because of rain in abundance (which I adore), another reason why a desert landscape is the least congenial.

Throw into the mix the fact that - for unknown reasons - all my life I've been fascinated by the Anglo-Saxon era, even to the extent (because I'm fascinated by languages) of trying to learn Old English, without stellar success. It's just something which has always drawn me. Why, I couldn't say for a million pounds; I just know that it does.

Shaker, what a pleasure it has been to read your posts on this thread. One of those occasions when someone you feel you've known for years genuinely suprises you. I have far more in common with you than I dared imagine.

I know precisely what you mean by English nature and, for my own part, the particular connections one can feel is something I have contemplated a great deal. It's partly a professional interest as I am in the business of nature/science communication, specifically with geological heritage. And if I had to 'pick one', a religion that is, it would be a form of paganism.

[Shaker]

Thanks very much 

[SweetPea]

I've read some of Shaker's lengthier posts on NGLr and he does have a gift in the way he expresses himself.
 

[SweetPea]

CMG, a couple of questions:

".... the only difference between your opinions and mine are that you do not recognise the creator and designer of the countryside as a diety, except perhaps the Gaia - Mother Earth."

1. Who do you recognise as the deity creator and designer of the countryside?

2. I asked Jez once about Gaia but she wasn't impressed and totally dismissed her. So, why do you think that was?

[SweetPea]

For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:

In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.

Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?


I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

[Bubbles]

For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:

In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.

Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?


I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

I'm glad you are still here Sweetpea 

It's nice when we can all share our different ideas.

[SweetPea]

For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:

In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.

Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?


I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

I'm glad you are still here Sweetpea 

It's nice when we can all share our different ideas.

Thanks, Rose, I agree.

I was really tired the other evening.... and rather grumpy!! Haha....

[Rhiannon]

For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:

In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.

Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?


I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

Personally, no. I once had someone who is into the LoA tell me my anxiety around my kids getting sick (which they did a lot, ambulance and hospital style) had manifested their illnesses. This I think is complete (not to mention disgusting) bullshit. It's actually quite important to make the distinction for anyone with a spiritual life and anxiety that our random thoughts do not create anything, even if they become compulsive. It's not uncommon for OCD to take on a spiritual form, saying the right prayers or Bible passage or blessing to keep everyone safe.

Intent is about changing you. If you want to get the girl/guy from accounts then having the intent that you will is likely to make you more confident and so more attractive - if you are prepared to take a risk and make a move. Nothing just shows up.

[Rhiannon]

For Rhiannon, because I've seen you mention the power of intention before: from Rose's link:

In many forms of paganism, ‘intent’ is everything and for good reason: as humans we create our own realities and we do it with our minds as much as we do with our bodies. Intention is about believing that you can make anything happen by the power of thought. You want that promotion/award/date with the woman in accounts or a greener, healthier planet? Wish it. Make it happen.

Would you say this is similar to the law of attraction?


I'm not trying to catch you or CMG out with my questions, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

I'm glad you are still here Sweetpea 

It's nice when we can all share our different ideas.

Thanks, Rose, I agree.

I was really tired the other evening.... and rather grumpy!! Haha....

Im glad you are still here, too. <hug>

[Owlswing]

CMG, a couple of questions:

".... the only difference between your opinions and mine are that you do not recognise the creator and designer of the countryside as a diety, except perhaps the Gaia - Mother Earth."

1. Who do you recognise as the deity creator and designer of the countryside?

2. I asked Jez once about Gaia but she wasn't impressed and totally dismissed her. So, why do you think that was?

1. I don't. The Gaia is not a deity - she is Mother Earth. I do not believe that the world was created by any deity. I have no idea where, when,  how or by whom or by what the Earth was created. My deities are, where nature is concerned, within nature, the deities are nature and nature is the deities.

2. Ah yes! Jez! She was the person on the Beeb, who, like Rhi on here, I referred, as a mark of my respect for her knowledge of matters Pagan and pagan, to as Lady Jezreel. She rejected the title in print on the Beeb and then, a couple of years down the line, when we met at Avebury where I was doing a ritual with my Coven, she lambasted me as a sexist, arrogant, chauvanistic pig whose attitudes to women as demonstrated by my addressing her as Lady Jezreel should forever deny me the right to call myself Pagan or witch. We never spoke again - she ignored my posts on the Beeb and I hers. In fact I think that she was the only person ever to be ejected and barred from the Glitter Room.

Her take on matters related to paganism were almost Dianic at times and I never did find out why she had such an aversion to referring to the Gaia.

If you want a really knowledgable answer to your questions relating to matters Pagan I suggest you ask JC - he is the fount of all knowledge on the subject, knowing far better than either the Lady Rhi or I; so much so I am amazed he hasn't posted on this thread yet! (Said very very tongue in cheek!)

Or has he, I tend to ignore him these days on medical advice as his demonstrations of Christian anti-Pagan bias to the oint of hatred tend to send my blood-pressure into the stratosphere.

If you would like to ask more specific questions I will always try to answer them, but I do not profess to have all the answers, very few of them in fact, but to have someone to talk to who isn't going to use the answers given as a basis for prolonged piss-taking will be fun.

I should point out - as has been posted here both by myself and Rhi, - pagan's paths tend to be highly personal and individual, Rhi's paganism and my own are very very different so any answers or opinions that I give will be valid only foir me and not, in most cases, for pagans generally.       

[Rhiannon]

Matt's knowledge of Wicca, wicca and ceremonial stuff will always be streets ahead of mine. It's not something I have really ever gone into in any depth. But like Matt, I'm always happy to answer questions.

The thing with Gaia that I think some have issues with - the whole 'Mother Earth' thing - is that for centuries much of our culture has had a 'Heavenly Father' as a counterpoint, with its implied sense of one being superior to the other. Of course Matt doesn't have that view in the slightest, but I suspect that is what bothers many people.

[Rhiannon]

Well I am shocked!  Two actual pagans bringing me into the fold!

ETA: Nearly Sane did me the honour of putting my earlier overlong ramblings on the 'Forum best bits' section where Gonnagle wondered what I meant by specifying English nature (rather than nature in general). Rather than derail the thread by answering the question there I thought I'd do so here.

I was specific about English nature not because I mean any disservice to the starker, craggier landscapes of Wales (where I've spent a lot of time) or Scotland but simply because, given my upbringing, it's the English landscape that I automatically think of when I think of nature. It's like word association - nature means England, even my native East Midlands specifically. There are several very (and justly) celebrated explorers and nature writers - Doughty; Wilfred Thesiger; T.E. Lawrence; Edward Abbey, those sorts of people - who fell in love with deserts. By innate temperament, taste, preference, inclination, whatever you care to call it, that's not the sort of landscape to which I would respond as they did, since my tastes run to what I suppose you might call a very European landscape - bosomy fields and valleys, rivers, lakes, woods and the like. Green places, green because of rain in abundance (which I adore), another reason why a desert landscape is the least congenial.

Throw into the mix the fact that - for unknown reasons - all my life I've been fascinated by the Anglo-Saxon era, even to the extent (because I'm fascinated by languages) of trying to learn Old English, without stellar success. It's just something which has always drawn me. Why, I couldn't say for a million pounds; I just know that it does.

Shaker, what a pleasure it has been to read your posts on this thread. One of those occasions when someone you feel you've known for years genuinely suprises you. I have far more in common with you than I dared imagine.

I know precisely what you mean by English nature and, for my own part, the particular connections one can feel is something I have contemplated a great deal. It's partly a professional interest as I am in the business of nature/science communication, specifically with geological heritage. And if I had to 'pick one', a religion that is, it would be a form of paganism.

Shaker, if such a thing as a 'pagan fold' exists, neither Matt nor myself would dream of bringing you into it. But if you wanted to come in you'd be welcome. Samuel too.

Yes, I get exactly what you mean by a fascination with things past without knowing why. For me it's been a mix of English folklore and folk religion, and various periods from our past, including the Anglo-Saxon.  And like both you and Samuel the idea of English nature makes sense to me - soft, undulating, enfolding. I used to holiday a lot in the Med in my teens and always loved coming back to green and rain. Is there anywhere else on earth that gets mizzle?

Samuel and I have talked in the past about a sense of geological place. As an East Anglian, even if just by adoption, I find places with big stone rather unsettling - I'm used to living on flint and clay. And even though my part of it is gently hilly rather than flat, I love having big, big skies.

Sometimes people on this forum say that they are leaving because they feel we have said all that is to be said to each other. I just don't understand that; there are always things to say and to learn here. I for one have learned so much, made some good friends, and had such enjoyable conversation; over the past week or so I think we've had some of the best yet and it's been a pleasure to be a part of it.

[SweetPea]

Thank you, CMG and Rhiannon for your replies; and Rhiannon for your affection.... it is reciprocated, even if we do have our differences.

[Owlswing]

Shaker

Shaker, if such a thing as a 'pagan fold' exists, neither Matt nor myself would dream of bringing you into it. But if you wanted to come in you'd be welcome.

This is one of the mainstays of Paganism - IN MOST CASES - not all!

As you will probably read in other posts on the subject proselytising is, again in most cases, frowned upon if not actually banned. In a personalised religion such as paganism it is virtually impossible to ban anything; thus, as Rhi states above, we could not "bring you into the pagan fold". It is usual that any pagan will attempt to answer any question put to them relating to their beliefs, but with certain provisos.

1 - Any answer given will be that of the speaker only. Ask 100 pagans/witches (NB not all pagans are witches (I am - Rhi, as far as I know, is not), but the vast majority of witches are pagan) the same question and the individual nature of the religion will result in 100 different answers all of which will be as valid as the next - as with everyone else you need to make up your own mind from all the answers you get.

2 - If said pagan does not have an answer for you they will usually try to put you in touch with someone that they think can give you an answer - but 1 above will still apply.

3 - If they can think of no other person who is likely to be able to help, they will probably give you the names of several books that might help and/or the names of several authors whose body of work you could investigate. You should, in this instance, understand that, if your request is made face-to-face and in the company of other pagans there is likely to be a, possibly fierce, argument as to whether any particular author is the right one on the subject.

The major difference between paganism and most other "organised" religions, I do not need to list them for a veteran poster like you, you know which ones I mean, is that you make up your own mind, no-one will force any view upon you, if they try to do so they are not, IMO, true pagans.

The above is why the adherents of the "organised" religions delight in denegrating us pagans as following a pick-and-mix religion, while, of course, we pagans reject the "one-size-fits all" religions.

Oh, and while I am at it, on the subject of books, you might come across a book entitled "The Witch's Bible" authored by Janet and Stewart Farrar. It is NOT, in the Christian sense of the word, a bible. It gives information regarding beliefs (mostly based loosely upon Alexandrian Wicca), rituals, etc - thus being a bible only in the sense of the word meaning "book".

Should you choose to investigate your own personal pagan path, you can explore no-one else's, of course, you will find that it does not lead straight to Hell; take your journey along your path one step at a time in the sure and certain knowledge that you can turn and leave the path at anytime you wish to do so without any negative comeback from the deities who will have watched you with interest. If you do choose to explore - travel well and with an open mind.       

[Rhiannon]

I'm so against people telling me what to do I can't even embrace wicca as I find it too restrictive. But that's just my inner teenager probably.

Not because I think they'll teach anyone anything, but because they are a glorious mix of art, folklore and direct personal experience, I recommend the Spirit of the Hare and The Ogham Sketchbook by Karen Cater.

[Rhiannon]

Thank you, CMG and Rhiannon for your replies; and Rhiannon for your affection.... it is reciprocated, even if we do have our differences.

We go back a long way - I'd hate for us to fall out. I'm really happy for you that you are finding such fulfilment in your spiritual path now.

[Owlswing]

I'm so against people telling me what to do I can't even embrace wicca as I find it too restrictive. But that's just my inner teenager probably.

Not because I think they'll teach anyone anything, but because they are a glorious mix of art, folklore and direct personal experience, I recommend the Spirit of the Hare and The Ogham Sketchbook by Karen Cater.

I would suggest a "Search" on Books - Subject: Paganism and Books - Subject; Modern Witchcraft - these should result in enough reading matter to last several lifetimes.

One word of advice - if the book is published by Llewellyn (an American publisher of a lot of books on the craft) keep in the forefront of your mind that Americans practice both paganism and witchcraft in, sometimes, vastly different ways to those practised in the UK. They, Americans, cannot resist "improving" anything that they take up from anywhere outside the US, including Christianity - nowhere else but the US could have spawned the obscenity that is the Westboro Baptist Church.   

[Rhiannon]

I'm getting so woolly I'm not sure I like suggesting that anyone does anything.

[Owlswing]

I'm getting so woolly I'm not sure I like suggesting that anyone does anything.

Wooly?

Rubbish!

Your comments and staements of your beliefs on this thread are as clear as could be. They have to be, otherwise this ol' fogey would never have understood them!

Bright Blessings, Sister Rhi!

[Rhiannon]

Blessed be, Matt. 

[Shaker]

I think I may be on this sub-forum considerably more often than I have hitherto been. Goodness knows it can do with an injection 

[Gonnagle]

Dearest Mother Earth,

Did something just happen.

Dear God,

You know that saying, the one about " stop the world I want to get off " well I have changed my mind, it just got interesting.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

I think I may be on this sub-forum considerably more often than I have hitherto been. Goodness knows it can do with an injection 

That's welcome. Our pagan discussions became infrequent a while back because of the constant derails.

[Rhiannon]

Dearest Mother Earth,

Did something just happen.

Dear God,

You know that saying, the one about " stop the world I want to get off " well I have changed my mind, it just got interesting.

Gonnagle.

It has, hasn't it? 

[Owlswing]

I think I may be on this sub-forum considerably more often than I have hitherto been. Goodness knows it can do with an injection 

Too true! And unpleasantly so.

It does not help, of course that, unlike on the old Beeb, there are only three pagans, all of different paths, on the entire forum and when posts are made, as Rhi has said, they are usually immediately attacked from all directions, or, if not attacked then certainly and royally taken the piss out of.

Take the usual comments:

"Tree-huggers" - this epithet was coined for the "New-Age" eco-warriors who tried to fight the growing destruction of the landscape by chaining themselves to trees. These were mostly not pagan but a few were and thus were tarred with the same brush.

"Naked dancing" - Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wiccans are required, by their originators Gerald B Gardner and Alex Sanders, to perform their rituals "sky-clad", naked, on the ground that the energy to be raised in the circle was impeded by clothing worn by those raising the energy. This requirement had more to do with the lechery of naturist Gardner than any other reason.

Working sky-clad at 9 or 10 o'clock at night during May, June, July and August might be OK, but the rest of the year it is very hard to concentrate on the raising of energy and focus on the job that that energy is being raised to perform when your personal bits are threatening to turn to ice.

"Orgies" - supposedly held 'in the woods', sometimes called the greenwood wedding, this is a hang-over from the description of a Sabbat (held on the eight points of the Wheel of the Year - Imbolc, February 1st; Spring/Vernal Equinox, March 21rd/23rd; Beltaine (or Beltane), April 30th/May 1st; Summer Solstice, June 21st; Lughnasadh (pronounced Loo-nassa), August 1st; Autumn Equinox, September 21st; Samhain (pronounced Sah-wane), October 31st; and Yule/Winter Solstice, December 21st.) held to mark the Spring Equinox. 'Supposedly' because the only evidence for these orgies comes from the torture obtained confessions during the Burning Times (q v).

"The Burning Times" - a name used to define the time of the major witch-hunts of te 14th to 17th centuries. The name is inappropriate in England as burning was the Catholic Church's punishment for heresy and witches in England, a Protestant country, were prosecuted for maleficium, causing harm by magic and those convicted were hanged.

NO - modern witchcraft is not a continuation of a craft that has survived since pre-Chritian times. This is a fallacy created by Margaret A Murray and picked up by Gardner when he created Wicca. There is little or no evidence that those persecuted as witches were witches at all, most were entirely innocent, the old women, widows, the senile, the poor, the outcasts, easy targets to be blamed for a village's misfortunes - no-body dared blame the Christian god.

As I think I might have stated previously - not all pagans are witches - I am reasonably sure that neither Rhi nor Horsethorn are witches and I have no intention of asking them and neither would I "out" them if I did - but most witches are pagans.

I hope that this information will help to dispel soem of the misinformation propagated by the Chr . . . , by our detractors.