Seasons

[Rhiannon]

Well this raises the question what is a pagan?

That's hard to answer, but 'not New Age' is a correct answer.

[Owlswing]

Well this raises the question what is a pagan?

I don't know about Rhiannon, biut I for one, am fed up with being asked this question, on this forum as well as other places, explaining what my pagan belief is and getting the piss right royally taken out of what I have said.

I hold my beliefs as strongly as do the Chrsitian fundamentalists of various stripes on here. They get irate, to varying degrees, if someone takes the piss out of what they believe but feel perfectly entitled, because, presumably, theirs is the one true faith/deity, to trash mine.

Sorry JK, but you are going to have to look elsewhere for an answer to your question.

All I will say is that, if Rhiannon answers, her viewpoint will be vastly different to mine for, although we both tread Pagan paths, they are entirely different from each other..

[Leonard James]

I'd be surprised to say the least but Owly did say (in #8) that there would be a few pagans who would classify me as such!

I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.

[Owlswing]

I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.

It wss not a matter of "what gods" Shaker believed or believes in.

It was much more about his attitude to the natural world and his place in and attitude to it.

There are many pagans who have no affiliation to any deity. The Gaia (Mother Earth) and all that that concept includes is their only 'deity'.

[Shaker]

I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.

My understanding is that not all paganism is inherently or necessarily theistic.

[Owlswing]

My understanding is that not all paganism is inherently or necessarily theistic.

see #92

[Rhiannon]

I would be interested to hear what gods they think you believe in.

Joining in also to say that paganism isn't necessarily theistic. You may remember The Stranger who posted here and who is both a shaman and an atheist. I'm a pantheist and don't have a personal god as such.

[Jack Knave]

I don't know about Rhiannon, biut I for one, am fed up with being asked this question, on this forum as well as other places, explaining what my pagan belief is and getting the piss right royally taken out of what I have said.

I hold my beliefs as strongly as do the Chrsitian fundamentalists of various stripes on here. They get irate, to varying degrees, if someone takes the piss out of what they believe but feel perfectly entitled, because, presumably, theirs is the one true faith/deity, to trash mine.

Sorry JK, but you are going to have to look elsewhere for an answer to your question.

All I will say is that, if Rhiannon answers, her viewpoint will be vastly different to mine for, although we both tread Pagan paths, they are entirely different from each other..

Someone said that many pagans would consider Shaker as one of them so they must be working by some criterion. I only asked because the discussion led that way.

[Owlswing]

Someone said that many pagans would consider Shaker as one of them so they must be working by some criterion. I only asked because the discussion led that way.

I was the one who made that comment.

Many pagans work, like Rhiannon, with no deity.

They like Rhiannon work with the natural world around them. I am not one of them

It is people, like Rhiannon, who are non-theistic Pagans, who would have recognised a fellow-feeling by reading the post to which my comment was a reply. The post from Shaker was one that could easily have been made by a non-theistic Pagan.

[Rhiannon]

For many - not all - paganism is about relationship to the natural world. Heathenry isn't necessarily but most paths have some kind of nature spirituality at their heart. And paganism isn't a path of beliefs necessarily - certainly not for me - but a path of experiences.

[Rhiannon]

I was the one who made that comment.

Many pagans work, like Rhiannon, with no deity.

They like Rhiannon work with the natural world around them. I am not one of them

It is people, like Rhiannon, who are non-theistic Pagans, who would have recognised a fellow-feeling by reading the post to which my comment was a reply. The post from Shaker was one that could easily have been made by a non-theistic Pagan.

It's interesting to consider whether pantheism is a non-theist path. I don't identify as atheist but am I a theist? Good question.

[Jack Knave]

Joining in also to say that paganism isn't necessarily theistic. You may remember The Stranger who posted here and who is both a shaman and an atheist. I'm a pantheist and don't have a personal god as such.

Sounds to me from the posts above that paganism is all the rest that vaguely feel something spiritual (or a connection to nature) about life that aren't associated with some monotheistic religion or some such......? A rag bag of individuals.

[Rhiannon]

Sounds to me from the posts above that paganism is all the rest that vaguely feel something spiritual (or a connection to nature) about life that aren't associated with some monotheistic religion or some such......? A rag bag of individuals.

Well, 'rag bag' implies cast-offs or scraps, and pagans aren't that.

There are some paths that are clearly definable that you could say are religious in character. Others are driven by individual spiritual experiences, typically of the natural world. It's about taking responsibility for one's own spiritual wellbeing. Of course you could argue that all religion is about that, but many pagans follow a path without structure and have to find ways to make things work.

[Jack Knave]

It's interesting to consider whether pantheism is a non-theist path. I don't identify as atheist but am I a theist? Good question.

That's a good question.

I think pantheism came from Spinoza's philosophy and then retrospectively applied to the peoples beliefs in the past, but I may be wrong. But it kind of mushes God up with the stuff of the universe and leaves It 'faceless'.

[Rhiannon]

That's a good question.

I think pantheism came from Spinoza's philosophy and then retrospectively applied to the peoples beliefs in the past, but I may be wrong. But it kind of mushes God up with the stuff of the universe and leaves It 'faceless'.

I don't know - I can't say I've thought about it much except that when I look at the sky or earth or sea I think of it all as being god. I'm not sure why but I think it comes back to this concept if sacredness that was discussed elsewhere a while back. I see nature/ the universe as sacred so I see it as god... Except that doesn't really mean God as people usually think of deity.

[Jack Knave]

Well, 'rag bag' implies cast-offs or scraps, and pagans aren't that.

There are some paths that are clearly definable that you could say are religious in character. Others are driven by individual spiritual experiences, typically of the natural world. It's about taking responsibility for one's own spiritual wellbeing. Of course you could argue that all religion is about that, but many pagans follow a path without structure and have to find ways to make things work.

What I meant was that if it wasn't in a certain class or group then it was placed outside it with all the rest of similar ideas. So if a class was created for just apples and oranges then all the other fruits, a plethora of different types and sizes, would be outside that. Paganism is like a fruit salad....?

[Jack Knave]

I don't know - I can't say I've thought about it much except that when I look at the sky or earth or sea I think of it all as being god. I'm not sure why but I think it comes back to this concept if sacredness that was discussed elsewhere a while back. I see nature/ the universe as sacred so I see it as god... Except that doesn't really mean God as people usually think of deity.

I think some people would see you as being an old spirit, if you know what I mean, if you have that kind of connection with the fundamental aspect of the world.

[Rhiannon]

What I meant was that if it wasn't in a certain class or group then it was placed outside it with all the rest of similar ideas. So if a class was created for just apples and oranges then all the other fruits, a plethora of different types and sizes, would be outside that. Paganism is like a fruit salad....?

I see. It probably works best if you think of it as an umbrella term really. I *personally* think a sense of place is important, so for me paganism reflects my own landscape, seasons, myths, folklore, history and culture. But that's just me.

[Leonard James]

Joining in also to say that paganism isn't necessarily theistic. You may remember The Stranger who posted here and who is both a shaman and an atheist. I'm a pantheist and don't have a personal god as such.

OIC! I had always thought that gods were involved in paganism.  My apologies.

[Owlswing]

I see. It probably works best if you think of it as an umbrella term really. I *personally* think a sense of place is important, so for me paganism reflects my own landscape, seasons, myths, folklore, history and culture. But that's just me.

"Umbrella Term"!

Oy Vey! Ain't that the truth?

JK, it has come to be that just about anyone who is not part of one of the mainstream religions, and I include in that Sikh, Hindu, Ba'hai, Buddhism, etc. and infinitum, or atheist is lumped together as Pagan. Goddess help us it now even covers those who identify as Jedi and Sith and the Flying Spaghetti God!

There is a saying about both witches and Pagans (I'm both) that if you ask one hundred pagans or one hundred witches the same question you are likely to get one hundred and fifty different answers and each is going to be as valid as the next. Paganism is THAT diverse.

To answer your question as to what is paganism I can answer only for myself. I have, as previously stated, detailed what I believe and in what I believe only to have the Fundamentalist Christian Mafia attack from all sides, including Finland and Canada as well as the UK telling me that what I believe is NOT Paganism.

What they mean, of course, is that what I believe is not what THEY believe Paganism is. Paganism as you can see from Rhiannon's posts, a very personal belief, it is one that Christians do not understand because, as you have seen from Rhiannon’s posts, it is a very personal path and not one that has a Book of Thoughtless Obedience to tell you exactly what to do and how to do it and who to do it to.

Paganism is a path that recognises the diversity of humanity, that recognises that, in religion, "one size fits all" is rubbish.


 

[Owlswing]

OIC! I had always thought that gods were involved in paganism.  My apologies.

Gods, Goddesses, both are parts of the paths of some Pagans.

My Coven has a God and a Goddess as its guardian deities. We will, on ocassion, call upon other deities, male and female, in times of need when a specific form of aid or assistance is needed or desired.

Like I said, no one size fits all - no deities fits Rhiannon, male and female deities fits Owlswing.

Are you confused yet?

[Leonard James]

Gods, Goddesses, both are parts of the paths of some Pagans.

My Coven has a God and a Goddess as its guardian deities. We will, on ocassion, call upon other deities, male and female, in times of need when a specific form of aid or assistance is needed or desired.

Like I said, no one size fits all - no deities fits Rhiannon, male and female deities fits Owlswing.

Are you confused yet?

Nope! I now know that paganism doesn't necessarily involve gods. 

[Owlswing]

Nope! I now know that paganism doesn't necessarily involve gods. 

That is the impoirtant word in this case - necessarily!

[Leonard James]

That is the impoirtant word in this case - necessarily!

Good! Since there is zero proof that any 'gods' exist, the non-god pagans would seem to me to think more logically than their confederates.

[Shaker]

It's interesting to consider whether pantheism is a non-theist path. I don't identify as atheist but am I a theist? Good question.

Reminds me of a thread about pantheism that I've been meaning to start ...