Seasons

[Shaker]

Wicca is not so much about the belief as the practice. How ritual is performed, what is done when, as set out by Gardner and Valiente. I am not a Gardnerian and therefore, according to the garnerians, I am not allowed to call myself a Wiccan , but I can call myself a wiccan.

Snobbery to the n^th degree. Wiccans/Gardnerians and, to a lesser extent, Alexandrians consider themselves the aristocracy of neo-paganism.

Splitters 

[Rhiannon]

Loth as I am to start getting into hard and fast definitions here but I would also say that there surely has to be some element of the natural world being a focal point of reverence. I don't know enough about Wicca to be able to say if this is the case for Owlswing but I'm pretty confident that Rhiannon would agree with this much.

This is what it means to me, certainly; but then a path like Heathenry is very deity-focused. Some say that paganism means a path followed by indigenous people, but Wicca isn't that and neither is whatever woolly thing I do. So maybe it's either, or both.

[Shaker]

This is what it means to me, certainly; but then a path like Heathenry is very deity-focused. Some say that paganism means a path followed by indigenous people, but Wicca isn't that and neither is whatever woolly thing I do. So maybe it's either, or both.

True. The sort of books on paganism that I've read because I've been most interested in and atrracted to them have been the ones that treat nature as the focus of a pagan path, rather than deities and the ritualistic angle, so there's inevitably bias in that direction.

[Rhiannon]

Well, Doreen Valiente's most famous book is on natural magic. A lot of Wiccans do use nature in their rituals and paths. Druidry is very nature-focused because of the animistic aspect.

I couldn't find a path that hit the spot for me, or even a book, although plenty sparked off ideas. It's why for me it really is experiential and nothing else. I had to carve it out for myself pretty much.

[Owlswing]

True. The sort of books on paganism that I've read because I've been most interested in and atrracted to them have been the ones that treat nature as the focus of a pagan path, rather than deities and the ritualistic angle, so there's inevitably bias in that direction.

It is possible to find a path that is 'nature', a path that is 'deities', or a path that is both.

Mine is both, but not exclusively so. The four quarters called to ritual are the elements and spirits of the most powerful forces in nature, Earth, Air, Fire and Water, all of which are necessary to life but are equally capable of destroying all life.

[Jack Knave]

It is actually quite simple.

You look at the world and its religions, starting, in all probability, with that of your parents, and sometimes you get to point where you start to question that religion, its beliefs, its rules, its rituals (all church services are forms of ritual), and its attitudes to people, to other religions, to nature, to everything that it stands for.

Sometimes you find that there is nothing in the religion with which you fundamentally disagree - brilliant, happy, happy, days, carry on regardless.

If there is something that you find yourself at odds with, for instance - why are all the people running the ritual, the clergy, male and why are the wearing dresses?

Presumably the first people you will address this question to is your parents - if their answer satisfies you, move on to the next question. If all your questions are satisfactorily answered - again, happy days.

If not you move on to the Clergy and the library and try to find answers there.

If you do not find the answers you start looking at religions other than that in which you were raised. Some find what they want in the organised religions, others do not; of these last some will become atheist or anti-theist, some will investigate the non-organised religions - most of which are deemed pagan by the organised religions.

Paganism is the home of those who reject the philosophies of organised religion but equally reject the dogma of atheism. This is why modern paganism, neo-paganism is such a personal belief/religion. Some pagans do not call paganism a religion at all, mainly because of the connotation with all that they have rejected.

Yes, we are seen as the clowns of the religious world; fine, so be it, if you don’t like it reject it and us, but don't take the piss as, during our journey to paganism, we have, most of us, learned how to take the piss back and believe me the adherents of the organised religions and atheism do not like that and will always deny that they have ever taken the piss at all!

You don't believe me? Read these pages, but do it with an open mind.
   

So that would include the New Agers and others, but when I mentioned this before I was shot down. So do the New Agers and the like count as pagans?

[Jack Knave]

Loth as I am to start getting into hard and fast definitions here but I would also say that there surely has to be some element of the natural world being a focal point of reverence. I don't know enough about Wicca to be able to say if this is the case for Owlswing but I'm pretty confident that Rhiannon would agree with this much.

Well yes, we are physical beings in a physical universe so it would follow that the answer to 'Whatever' would include this aspect. From my psychological perspective this shows itself in what is known as projection and peoples' connection with the world is of this form and is keenly felt by them, hence their reverence for it.

[Owlswing]

So that would include the New Agers and others, but when I mentioned this before I was shot down. So do the New Agers and the like count as pagans?

Not necessarily - go to Stonehenge for the Summer Solstice and watch those who gather there. You will soon be able to separate the pagans from the New Agers.

The New Agers are the ones who turn up already pissed and stoned out of what is left of their brains; if the are not they are laden with the necessities to become so or more so and will continue becoming more and more stoned and drunk as dawn approaches.

The Druids will begin the Solstice ritiual to the accompaniment of New Agers screaming abuse at all and sundry, vomiting everywhere and over anyone who doesn't move out of the way fast enough and pissing on the stones destrotying a 4,500+ year old monument with uric acid.

And now they are complaining bitterly that National Heritage, who are reponsible for the upkeep of the moinument, want all drugs and alcohol banned from this years celebrations. The New Agers will of course, claim that their human rights are being abused some wanker lawyer/judge will say that they have to be allowed their noxious substances and alcohol and more damage will be done to a national monument in two days than has been done in thousands of years!

So NO! New Agers are NOT pagans by any definition that I or any pagan I know would recognise.

[Jack Knave]

Not necessarily - go to Stonehenge for the Summer Solstice and watch those who gather there. You will soon be able to separate the pagans from the New Agers.

The New Agers are the ones who turn up already pissed and stoned out of what is left of their brains; if the are not they are laden with the necessities to become so or more so and will continue becoming more and more stoned and drunk as dawn approaches.

The Druids will begin the Solstice ritiual to the accompaniment of New Agers screaming abuse at all and sundry, vomiting everywhere and over anyone who doesn't move out of the way fast enough and pissing on the stones destrotying a 4,500+ year old monument with uric acid.

And now they are complaining bitterly that National Heritage, who are reponsible for the upkeep of the moinument, want all drugs and alcohol banned from this years celebrations. The New Agers will of course, claim that their human rights are being abused some wanker lawyer/judge will say that they have to be allowed their noxious substances and alcohol and more damage will be done to a national monument in two days than has been done in thousands of years!

So NO! New Agers are NOT pagans by any definition that I or any pagan I know would recognise.

But your reductive definition of #135 would include them regardless of what you say above. You may not like them but they are, by your reasoning of #135, pagan.

[Owlswing]

But your reductive definition of #135 would include them regardless of what you say above. You may not like them but they are, by your reasoning of #135, pagan.

No, because apart from, as Rhi pointed out, the Christian New Agers, most have no religious affiliation whatsoever, not to deities, not nature, well unless by nature you mean weed and the makings of alcohol. And flower power.

But I know you are not going to let this go, so you just believe what you want. Everybody else does.

[Jack Knave]

No, because apart from, as Rhi pointed out, the Christian New Agers, most have no religious affiliation whatsoever, not to deities, not nature, well unless by nature you mean weed and the makings of alcohol. And flower power.

But I know you are not going to let this go, so you just believe what you want. Everybody else does.

There's more to the New Agers than getting high which they don't do. They are into crystals and stuff, and reiki (not sure how it is spelt) and psychic stuff...

[Samuel]

Alright. Not only misinterpreted their origin but also their meaning. The pagans knew they pointed to something but ultimately the were ignorant of their true meaning. Their origin is God and they also point to God. Using Christmas as an example again, midwinter and the subsequent increasing of the sun points to the uncreated light, Christ. This is to understand it correctly. The goes for the Resurrection and the time of year we celebrate that. These all point to the one true God, to Christ himself.

This is interesting and unfortunate. Interesting as a way of understanding the seasons from a Christian perspective, unfortunate that you insist that it is the only valid perspective available.

More 'true for you' nonsense spoiling another discussion

[Rhiannon]

It's interesting to note the link between the fact that churches face east and the element of sun worship in that.

[Samuel]

It's interesting to note the link between the fact that churches face east and the element of sun worship in that.

...and the halos, and all the imagery referring to light. "The sun is good. The sun is warm and brings forth life" basically underpins a shed load of our religious thinking.

[Rhiannon]

Driving home after school in daylight - bliss.

The mornings will soon catch up. And as it's easter it doesn't much matter when I get up over the next couple of days.

Come the end of summer I'll be welcoming the darker evenings again and the promise of the cold bleakness of winter. But for now, the fresh light of Spring is more than welcome.

[Leonard James]

Driving home after school in daylight - bliss.

The mornings will soon catch up. And as it's easter it doesn't much matter when I get up over the next couple of days.

Come the end of summer I'll be welcoming the darker evenings again and the promise of the cold bleakness of winter. But for now, the fresh light of Spring is more than welcome.

Yes, I've already got a load of seedlings potted up to plant out in a couple of weeks time, and more stuff to be sown. It's wonderful to see everything moving again. (but not the weeds!) 

[Rhiannon]

Yes, round here cowslips shoot up all over the place. Lovely to spot them, and the May blossom budding.

[Shaker]

Come the end of summer I'll be welcoming the darker evenings again and the promise of the cold bleakness of winter.

Ah yes, that's a certain time of year that I look forward every year. I've noticed for many a year now that there's always one particular day - not a specific date but one day, whenever it may fall; it's always some time in autumn - when there's a distinct nip in the air, not mere coolness but actual cold, and what Emily Dickinson called "a certain slant of light" around dusk as the nights start to draw in and you can see and feel and know winter to be on the way again. I wait for it and mark it every year.

Love it. A long way off yet, unfortunately, but there we go.

[Brownie]

I like the autumn too Shaker.
Unlike many on here, I enjoy dark mornings and don't particularly like light evenings.  I feel more cosy in the dark.

[Rhiannon]

Ah yes, that's a certain time of year that I look forward every year. I've noticed for many a year now that there's always one particular day - not a specific date but one day, whenever it may fall; it's always some time in autumn - when there's a distinct nip in the air, not mere coolness but actual cold, and what Emily Dickinson called "a certain slant of light" around dusk as the nights start to draw in and you can see and feel and know winter to be on the way again. I wait for it and mark it every year.

Love it. A long way off yet, unfortunately, but there we go.

I like the turn of the year at both ends. In spring there is a certain point, a day where the sun will shine through new green leaves and yet it isn't warm; instead it is as fresh as a bucket of water pouring over you. And that, for me, means Spring has fully arrived.

The sad thing is though that it doesn't last. All too soon the spring flowers will give way to summer's riot which is finished by July and replaced by dust and heat that I long to end, although stealing out under the stars on a warm night has its attractions. The beautiful thing about Autumn is that it heralds a long season of darkness, drama and bleak, bleak landscape; here we are at Easter and the trees still aren't green, we are still looking at greyness, still lighting the woodburner.

[Shaker]

All too soon the spring flowers will give way to summer's riot which is finished by July and replaced by dust and heat that I long to end, although stealing out under the stars on a warm night has its attractions.

Very much so. Hot summers in England are hateful, not just for being hot - I've been to arid desert countries and felt more comfortable - but because they're both hot and humid, and I happen to live in a central part of the realm which often catches the worst of the heat and humidity. The only saving grace is that the end of such days is the best thing about them - light until late and wonderful for sitting on a comfy reclining chair out of doors with a book and a bottle of something nice and a lamp until it gets too dark to read and then you can watch the bats doing their Battle of Britain re-enactment over the garden and the stars beyond. I've never quite slept out in the garden on such nights yet, but have been very close to it.

Very much thinking that all this belongs on the 'Seasons' thread over on the Pagan sub-forum

[Rhiannon]

We get bats here too. I once went bat watching in a forest one night, organised by the NT; whilst it was fun falling over tree roots and swearing, picking up one bat on the bat detector was somewhat of an anti-climax. I did ponder the logistics of offering bat expeditions in my own back garden, complete with cheese and wine and decent toilets.

[Shaker]

We get bats here too. I once went bat watching in a forest one night, organised by the NT; whilst it was fun falling over tree roots and swearing, picking up one bat on the bat detector was somewhat of an anti-climax.

I was going to get a bat detector myself; but a small expensive box that sounds like a dolphin was a budget-wrecker too far. 

I did ponder the logistics of offering bat expeditions in my own back garden, complete with cheese and wine and decent toilets.

Ker-chinggggg!