Who Do You Think You Are

[Nearly Sane]

We have a mix of posters here, I'll defend what I say, no one speaks for me apart from me. Apart from a few rabid Scots and you nationality is largely irrelevant to these boards. 

Irony alert! Irony alert!

Please expand.

Let's see - all these rabid Scots - a few must be at least 3. Jim, you might argue but he's very clearly and continually emphasised his civic nationalism. Of the forum, King Oberon is probably the next most vociferous but again is a civic nationalist. Who else?

As to it just being those of us Scots who are rabid and Srsiram - I'd suggest that there are people on here arguing that we shouldn't accept refugees because of the damage to 'our' culture who are more easily categorised as bringing up nationality in this way.


Therefore I suspect that it is your antipathy to the SNP that is causing your view and is therefore irony.

[Udayana]

I don't see why we should have any restrictions on discussion topics related to nation or nationality. It is true that there is much ignorance, but discussion is one way of reducing this. People may, or may not, make their own moral judgments about issues in different countries, but the board is hardly trying to establish an international moral pecking order.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Hi HH,

 

And then there is the effect of subculture, and the arbitrary rules and mores used to enforce conformity within the group. In Britain, we are seeing cases of literally hundreds of children and adolescent girls - almost all of whom are in care - being used as sex objects and prosititutes by men. Virtually all the men involved appear to have come from Moslem communities - possibly seeing the girls as having no value as human beings because they are not Moslems. That is one example of the influences of a subculture. There is a second subculture at work here - the "social worker" subculture (riddled with political correctness) which forbids any intimation at all that the perpetrators of this evil may come from a particular ethnic and religious background.

Any group can be responsible for such activities. They just happen to be muslims in that particular case.

In India many white foreigners (Britishers in many cases) have been caught and jailed for abuse and pornography in the guise of running  orphanages, schools and NGO's.  This is quite common.  We come across at least one case every couple of years. 

Is this because of a subculture of sexual abuse and pedophilia  in the west?!

The idea that the abuse by predatory Pakistani gangs in Rotherham was only aimed at white girls has been revised after further investigation showed that Pakistani girls were also abused by members of their community but were afraid to approach social services or the police for help. 

The girls in care did not speak out because they were threatened by their abusers, or when they did speak out nothing was done by social services or the police. The girls from ethnic minority communities, which often tend to be conservative communities, did not speak out because they were worried about being killed by their abuser, worried they wouldn't be believed or that social services or the police would not help and also worried about being ostracised by their families for bringing shame on themselves and their families by being sexually abused.

IMO both the programme in the OP about India and the sexual abuse cases in Rotheram highlight the specific problems caused by the cultural idea that the 'value' of women is connected to some notion of sexual purity and that a family member connected to a 'devalued' woman is also somehow devalued or shamed. That is an interesting value to explore and IMO that value should be challenged and eradicated.

That is not intended to deflect attention from or minimise the specific problems highlighted by Sriram about  the sub-culture that lead to groups of relatively rich Western sexual tourists or NGOs in India sexually abusing Indian children in a systematic way by exploiting the economic disparity between abuser and victim. Of course the sense of privilege, superiority and abuse of power from having money should also be challlenged and eradicated.

[jakswan]

Let's see - all these rabid Scots - a few must be at least 3. Jim, you might argue but he's very clearly and continually emphasised his civic nationalism. Of the forum, King Oberon is probably the next most vociferous but again is a civic nationalist. Who else?

I don't think you are a rabid Scot, I'll rephrase to a couple.

As to it just being those of us Scots who are rabid and Srsiram - I'd suggest that there are people on here arguing that we shouldn't accept refugees because of the damage to 'our' culture who are more easily categorised as bringing up nationality in this way.

I forgot how pedantic you can be let me totally rephrase:-

Nationality is rarely brought up on these forums, it is brought up by Siriam who makes comparative statements, actually that it is normally more cultural, East v West, but in the post it was Britain / India. It is often brought up by a couple of Scots, actually its mainly one who goes on and on and on, and who in my opinion is rabid.

Therefore I suspect that it is your antipathy to the SNP that is causing your view and is therefore irony.

No I've said that SNP is fantastic political party and I have much respect to them, I don't like what they stand for but that is my political view.

[Udayana]

...
IMO both the programme in the OP about India and the sexual abuse cases in Rotheram highlight the specific problems caused by the cultural idea that the 'value' of women is connected to some notion of sexual purity and that a family member connected to a 'devalued' woman is also somehow devalued or shamed. That is an interesting value to explore and IMO that value should be challenged and eradicated.

That is not intended to deflect attention from or minimise the specific problems highlighted by Sriram about  the sub-culture that lead to groups of relatively rich Western sexual tourists or NGOs in India sexually abusing Indian children in a systematic way by exploiting the economic disparity between abuser and victim. Of course the sense of privilege, superiority and abuse of power from having money should also be challlenged and eradicated.

Certainly agree that the paternalistic regressive attitudes equating sexual "purity" of a woman with family honor or shame should be eliminated. But the issue was far worse than this at the time of partition. Women would either be murdered after being raped or taken into sexual slavery. Men would mostly be killed outright.

The closest we have today is the systematic rape and enslavement of the Yazidi women and massacres by ISIS. Many would consider suicide as the preferable option if they were defeated or unable to fight. Captured children are separated and indoctrinated, forced to become ISIS fighters or abused and killed.

This is also similar to some of the crimes committed by the LRA in Africa and not really comparable to the exploitation of third world children by paedophiles, sex tourists or "charity" workers - which of-course must also be eliminated.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes - there was an article about how a woman's body was considered a trophy by mobs during partition and how the sexual slavery of women was a way of consuming and eradicating and humiliating the other community - so Hindu, Sikh and Muslim women were abducted and kept by members of the other community.

http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/blog/entry/rape-accounts-still-surface-from-indias-partition-65-years-on

This is an interesting read to identify reasons why it is important to remember these horrific historical events, even though they are painful to think about. It compares partition to the atrocities of Japan's sexual slavery and how talking about these events could influence attitudes today.

http://www.india-seminar.com/2001/497/497%20urvashi%20butalia.htm

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

This is also similar to some of the crimes committed by the LRA in Africa and not really comparable to the exploitation of third world children by paedophiles, sex tourists or "charity" workers - which of-course must also be eliminated.

The exploitation of 3rd world children and the crimes in Rotherham against white and ethnic minority children might well be better discussed on different threads from this one but they do seem to be forms of sexual slavery enforced through violence.

The degrees of violence in each case might be different - it's difficult to know until the media decide to publicise it. Certainly ISIS sex slavery and sexual violence in the Democratic Republic of Congo have been well publicised. And German atrocities against Russian women and Russian atrocities against German women in WW2 are also well publicised. So I don't see the problem of discussing atrocities that took place during Partition.

[Owlswing]

The exploitation of 3rd world children and the crimes in Rotherham against white and ethnic minority children might well be better discussed on different threads from this one . . .

OK -I am white - well pink actually - but hey - a rose by any other name . . . but I disagree that this should be on another thread.

The abuse in Rotherham was carried out exlusively by men from the Indian sub-continent. It was stated several times during the trial that the men involved considered that the white girls did not deserve any respect at all they, like many males, and not just first-generation immigrants, from India/Pakistan subscribe to the belief that "white girls are easy!"

Unfortunately far too many are exactly that. However this kind of systematic abuse of girls was not a problem until the Indian/Pakistani attitude that sees all women as being less entitled to respect entered the equation via immigration and the attitude was passed oen from fathers to sons. Importantly however, not from all fathers to sons.

As far as I am concerned there is nowhere in the world where any female, regardless of age, should be considered to have a lesser right to the same level of respect as is given to males.

Sririam seems to consider that because there are matters, specified in a lengthy post above, in which the West is far from perfect, it jutifies his view that we in the West should ignore similar impoerfections in India and Pakistan.

Ye Gods and Goddesses, I am the first to admit that I, personally, am far from perfect, that the U K is far from perfect and problem free in the treatment of women and that the Western world could do with a vigourous shake in the same area, but this does not mean that we have to condone the behaviour somehere where the barbarity and unacceptability of such behaviour, just because it is "traditional" is accepted, in fact, is frequently ignored at every level of the society, especially by those who have the authority to act against it.

This is not a matter of racism - it is a matter of being civilised regardless of race.

[Udayana]

Matthew,
Agree entirely.

Though it should be noted that the street child exploitation gangs were not Indian origin, even Muslim Indian, and based on attitudes and "modus operandi" developed within the UK Pakistani sub-culture - not to say that it does not have equivalents elsewhere or has not since been adopted by others.

Nowhere is perfect and, further, there is no perfect system, as people have a natural inclination to skew things in their own favour, exploiting others and ultimately corrupting and pulling down the whole edifice.

And why not? As there is no accepted absolute morality or ultimate purpose to anything there is no universal rule that women should be equal to men or children should not be thrown down wells or whatever. Ultimately it is your own choice: if you want to live in, or work towards,, a world that runs in accordance with what you feel, believe or have concluded is moral, the only way of doing that is to discuss, educate, persuade and, above all, demonstrate that your way works and is actually best for all concerned - together with other likewise minded, civilised and reasonable people.
 

[BashfulAnthony]

The exploitation of 3rd world children and the crimes in Rotherham against white and ethnic minority children might well be better discussed on different threads from this one . . .

OK -I am white - well pink actually - but hey - a rose by any other name . . . but I disagree that this should be on another thread.

The abuse in Rotherham was carried out exlusively by men from the Indian sub-continent. It was stated several times during the trial that the men involved considered that the white girls did not deserve any respect at all they, like many males, and not just first-generation immigrants, from India/Pakistan subscribe to the belief that "white girls are easy!"

Unfortunately far too many are exactly that. However this kind of systematic abuse of girls was not a problem until the Indian/Pakistani attitude that sees all women as being less entitled to respect entered the equation via immigration and the attitude was passed oen from fathers to sons. Importantly however, not from all fathers to sons.

As far as I am concerned there is nowhere in the world where any female, regardless of age, should be considered to have a lesser right to the same level of respect as is given to males.

Sririam seems to consider that because there are matters, specified in a lengthy post above, in which the West is far from perfect, it jutifies his view that we in the West should ignore similar impoerfections in India and Pakistan.

Ye Gods and Goddesses, I am the first to admit that I, personally, am far from perfect, that the U K is far from perfect and problem free in the treatment of women and that the Western world could do with a vigourous shake in the same area, but this does not mean that we have to condone the behaviour somehere where the barbarity and unacceptability of such behaviour, just because it is "traditional" is accepted, in fact, is frequently ignored at every level of the society, especially by those who have the authority to act against it.

This is not a matter of racism - it is a matter of being civilised regardless of race.

I trust you don't have the hypocrisy to include yourself in the "civilised" group!

[Owlswing]

The exploitation of 3rd world children and the crimes in Rotherham against white and ethnic minority children might well be better discussed on different threads from this one . . .

OK -I am white - well pink actually - but hey - a rose by any other name . . . but I disagree that this should be on another thread.

The abuse in Rotherham was carried out exlusively by men from the Indian sub-continent. It was stated several times during the trial that the men involved considered that the white girls did not deserve any respect at all they, like many males, and not just first-generation immigrants, from India/Pakistan subscribe to the belief that "white girls are easy!"

Unfortunately far too many are exactly that. However this kind of systematic abuse of girls was not a problem until the Indian/Pakistani attitude that sees all women as being less entitled to respect entered the equation via immigration and the attitude was passed oen from fathers to sons. Importantly however, not from all fathers to sons.

As far as I am concerned there is nowhere in the world where any female, regardless of age, should be considered to have a lesser right to the same level of respect as is given to males.

Sririam seems to consider that because there are matters, specified in a lengthy post above, in which the West is far from perfect, it jutifies his view that we in the West should ignore similar impoerfections in India and Pakistan.

Ye Gods and Goddesses, I am the first to admit that I, personally, am far from perfect, that the U K is far from perfect and problem free in the treatment of women and that the Western world could do with a vigourous shake in the same area, but this does not mean that we have to condone the behaviour somehere where the barbarity and unacceptability of such behaviour, just because it is "traditional" is accepted, in fact, is frequently ignored at every level of the society, especially by those who have the authority to act against it.

This is not a matter of racism - it is a matter of being civilised regardless of race.

I trust you don't have the hypocrisy to include yourself in the "civilised" group!

Better than you who would trust Jesus if he gave you a nine-bob note - yes I do - I meant exactly what I said that the practices that Seririam is either defending or claiming are acceptable because they only exist in backward and rural areas are barbaric and uncivilised, but then, to you, anyone who questions your values, comments or religion is a hypocrite.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Sriram,
What do you mean second hand news? Chandra is only a couple years younger than I so we were in the same Sunday school until my family left for the country life. His adopted parents were missionaries supported by the congregation and they were friends of my parents probably 20 years before I was adopted. No, it's not second hand when you know and were actually a part of the event. By this I mean I remember when they came home on furlough and brought the situation with Chandra to the congregations attention. We all got behind and supported this couple with prayers and with letter writing and financial help eventually getting the fella to Canada and adopted by this couple. Is it hard for you to fathom that some people are superstitious about albinos? You won't deny that that city is the street children capital of the world will you?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZsgS3wnn0

[Sriram]

Johnny,

I have never ever heard of albinos being abandoned or ill treated in India. I have seen plenty of albinos around and they get along as normally as any one else (some are even mistaken for white foreigners sometimes!).  I knew one girl in school in the 60's who was an albino and she even married later....though she developed major problems with her eyesight subsequently.  She was treated perfectly normally at school and everywhere else.

So....please stop pulling rabbits out of hats!  You are clearly obsessed with India issues....and you are allowing your negative programming about India to influence you rather more than is wise. Just get over it.

[Owlswing]

. . .  you are allowing your negative programming about India to influence you rather more than is wise. Just get over it.

Translation - I have dropped a damn great gooley on this thread and am now trying to back out of it!

[Sriram]

Rose,

There is no such fear of albinos or any superstition or anything of that sort in India. There are plenty of albinos around and as normal as anyone else.

Johnny is just developing a compulsive disorder I think.   

He keeps coming up with something or the other at random!   Seems to keep a ready stock of negative anecdotes about India and starts firing at the first hint of any discussion on it.   

PS: But  I don't feel any malice or spite from him somehow...which is why I bother to reply and clarify to his posts. So far so good!

[Owlswing]

Rose,

There is no such fear of albinos or any superstition or anything of that sort in India. There are plenty of albinos around and as normal as anyone else.

Johnny is just developing a compulsive disorder I think.   

He keeps coming up with something or the other at random!   Seems to keep a ready stock of negative anecdotes about India and starts firing at the first hint of any discussion on it.   

PS: But  I don't feel any malice or spite from him somehow...which is why I bother to reply and clarify to his posts. So far so good!

So far, so good?

That is more than can be said for your attempts to justify the barbaric actions that are the subject of the OP! A subject from which you have spectacularly failed to divert attention.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Excuse me Sirarm. I didn't claim this was wide spread in India at all. It was a case that i know personally and that family was told to get the boy out of the house by a Hindu religious leader.  A Hindu priest with superstitions is not unusual.

http://lexquest.in/study-on-albinism-in-india-and-its-social-impact/

[Sriram]

Excuse me Sirarm. I didn't claim this was wide spread in India at all. It was a case that i know personally and that family was told to get the boy out of the house by a Hindu religious leader.  A Hindu priest with superstitions is not unusual.

http://lexquest.in/study-on-albinism-in-india-and-its-social-impact/

Johnny,

It is not just NOT widespread...but discrimination against albinos is something I have not even heard of in India!  You really must stop pulling out such individual incidents and highlighting them as though they are a way of life. 

I have heard of redheads being attacked in Britain (some very recent incidents too!).  You don't want the world to think that this is a way of life in Britain..do you?! 

[Owlswing]

Excuse me Sirarm. I didn't claim this was wide spread in India at all. It was a case that i know personally and that family was told to get the boy out of the house by a Hindu religious leader.  A Hindu priest with superstitions is not unusual.

http://lexquest.in/study-on-albinism-in-india-and-its-social-impact/

Johnny,

It is not just NOT widespread...but discrimination against albinos is something I have not even heard of in India!  You really must stop pulling out such individual incidents and highlighting them as though they are a way of life. 

I have heard of redheads being attacked in Britain (some very recent incidents too!).  You don't want the world to think that this is a way of life in Britain..do you?!

JC knows nothing of life in Britain - he is on the other side of the Atlantic!

[Leonard James]

JC knows nothing of life in Britain - he is on the other side of the Atlantic!

JC's view of life is sadly biased by his odd beliefs.

[Rhiannon]

Sriram, people can be attacked for being redheads, dressing a certain way (a girl was murdered in a park not so long ago because she was a 'goth' ie dressed a certain way), or being fat. We are in many ways still a 'lookist' society and a consumerist one, and a lot of people are insecure about who they are, which makes them lash out at others. Add to that the drinking culture and there are real problems. Across society as a whole this doesn't usually result in violence, but it does lead to low self esteem, which you could say is almost epidemic given the links between it and depression, anxiety, weight gain, eating disorders, binge drinking etc etc.

[BashfulAnthony]

JC knows nothing of life in Britain - he is on the other side of the Atlantic!

JC's view of lif...

Everybody is wrong, or biased, except you of course.  Does it not enter your "thinking,"  that you are extremely atronising?

[Owlswing]

JC knows nothing of life in Britain - he is on the other side of the Atlantic!

JC's view of lif...

Everybody is wrong, or biased, except you of course.  Does it not enter your "thinking,"  that you are extremely atronising?

One - the word has a 'p' at the beginning 'patronising; - except in America where it is, incorrectly, spelt patronizing.

Two - JC can be the MOST patronising of Christians and Transatlantics when his opinions are questioned.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Sriram,
You will agree that Mumbai is the street children capital of the world?

Dearst matty,
At least I've been to your UK and I happen to love the UK. You have never been to N America and spout you vile against the USA out of your complete and total pig-ignorance.

Leo,
I find much of what you spew is a product of you anger at Christianity and God. You are a very biased fella yourself.

[Sriram]

Sriram,
You will agree that Mumbai is the street children capital of the world?

Yes...so what's that got to do with anything? There are 400 million poor people in India. You have any problems with that or plan to do anything about it?!

Don't just throw any old thing at me... please.

Come on Johnny...you are not normally a malicious fella. You just have a bee in your bonnet about India. Get over it.   Lots of good things in India too....and its getting better. There are lots of Canadians and Americans who have made India their home and love it.