Newsflash

[trippymonkey]

Rose
I think I love you !!!

[floo]

The Lord was Jewish!

Well you learn something everyday 

Well he certainly wasn't a Christian, a religion which was created well after his death with him as the icon!

[Hope]

Nonsense Hope. It's not technically impossible at all.

People can convert to Judaism if they want, I've looked into it.

I've looked into it as well, Rose and been told by several rabbis that one can't be a full Jew without Jewish blood somewhere on one's mother's maternal side.

Furthermore, conversion is to a specific denomination of Judaism, as opposed to Judaism as a whole, and often one's conversion under the requirements of a given demonination will not be accepted by other denominations.  Then, there are certain denominations who won't accept any conversions.  I have spoken to Hasidic Jews who say that it is impossible to convert to that form of Judaism (though I have also spoken to what you might call 'lapsed' Hasidic Jews who say one can).

A convert is supposed to be treated equally to any born Jew.

The problem is that further down the line, genealogies struggle to get past the 'Gentile' convert, thus making proof that one is a Jew difficult.

Regarding Ruth, she was not a convert.  She was married to a Jew and chose to accompany Naomi back to Israel when Naomi's two sons died.  If you look at the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew, you will find four occasions when someone is referred to as being the son of X - Judah, Salmon, Boaz and David BY Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and 'the wife of Uriah' respectively.  Clearly, there is something different about these 4 women - they were all non-Jews.

[jeremyp]

Interestingly, the early church was run by Jews (Peter, James, John, (sons ofZebedee) Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew/Nathaniel, Thomas, Matthew, James (son of Alphaeus), Simon the Zealot, Thaddeus-Judas, not forgetting Paul and Barnabbas) and it was they who were instrumental in pointing out that Christ had taught that he had come to fulfill the 'law', and to develop greater ones.

Paul documents that the leaders of the church in Jerusalem (James and John) were quite keen on the Jewish laws being maintained. However that part of the church didn't survive the 70's.

[jeremyp]

Nonsense Hope. It's not technically impossible at all.

People can convert to Judaism if they want, I've looked into it.

I've looked into it as well, Rose and been told by several rabbis that one can't be a full Jew without Jewish blood somewhere on one's mother's maternal side.

You'd better get on with fixing the Wikipedia page then because it totally contradicts you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

[Hope]

Paul documents that the leaders of the church in Jerusalem (James and John) were quite keen on the Jewish laws being maintained. However that part of the church didn't survive the 70's.

I am aware of the point you are making, but Early Church History suggests that the Judaising element of the church had lost out to the more mainstream element some years - perhaps even a couple of decades - before the destruction of Jerusalem. 

[Hope]

You'd better get on with fixing the Wikipedia page then because it totally contradicts you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

"The procedure for conversion depends on the sponsoring denomination, and depends on meeting the requirements for a conversion to that religious or non-religious branch or denomination. A conversion in accordance with the process of a denomination is not a guarantee of recognition by another denomination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

[Hope]

Well he certainly wasn't a Christian, a religion which was created well after his death with him as the icon!

No, Floo, Christianity wasn't created 'well after' Jesus' death.  As we know from Acts, it began to be preached a month or two after his resurrection.  The term 'Christian' was originally a derogatory reference to the followers of Christ by the non-Christians in Antioch about 10 years later. 

If you are going to make such a claim, please make sure that - for your own benefit - it actually has the remotest degree of validity to it.

[Nearly Sane]

You'd better get on with fixing the Wikipedia page then because it totally contradicts you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

"The procedure for conversion depends on the sponsoring denomination, and depends on meeting the requirements for a conversion to that religious or non-religious branch or denomination. A conversion in accordance with the process of a denomination is not a guarantee of recognition by another denomination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

Surely on that basis you cannot convert to Christianity either?

[Hope]

Surely on that basis you cannot convert to Christianity either?

Whilst I have heard of someone converting to Catholicism, I've never heard of anyone converting to Baptistism or Methodistism; Anglicanism or Brethrenism.  Generally people will say that they have become a Christian and attend a Catholic, CofE/Anglican, Baptist, Brethren, Methodist, Orthodox, etc. church.

[Nearly Sane]

No, I get that but surely you are treating Christianity and its various denominations/sects/subcults, differently from Judaism and its various denominations/sects/subcults? If one cannot convert to Judaism on the basis some bits of it may not accept you, then the same is true of converting to Christianity.

[jakswan]

Well he certainly wasn't a Christian, a religion which was created well after his death with him as the icon!

No, Floo, Christianity wasn't created 'well after' Jesus' death.  As we know from Acts, it began to be preached a month or two after his resurrection.  The term 'Christian' was originally a derogatory reference to the followers of Christ by the non-Christians in Antioch about 10 years later. 

If you are going to make such a claim, please make sure that - for your own benefit - it actually has the remotest degree of validity to it.

Assuming Acts is accurate, itself was written well after Jesus popped his clogs.

[trippymonkey]

AAAGGGHHHH
Wasn't Jesus' job to REFRESH JUDAISM NOT create a new faith ?!?!?!?

[jeremyp]

Paul documents that the leaders of the church in Jerusalem (James and John) were quite keen on the Jewish laws being maintained. However that part of the church didn't survive the 70's.

I am aware of the point you are making, but Early Church History suggests that the Judaising element of the church had lost out to the more mainstream element some years - perhaps even a couple of decades - before the destruction of Jerusalem.

Well we don't know. Obviously Paul won his battle to not make his converts convert to Judaism because he says so and that would have been in the 40's or 50's, but we do not know what happened with James' branch because history is totally silent on the subject.

[jeremyp]

You'd better get on with fixing the Wikipedia page then because it totally contradicts you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

"The procedure for conversion depends on the sponsoring denomination, and depends on meeting the requirements for a conversion to that religious or non-religious branch or denomination. A conversion in accordance with the process of a denomination is not a guarantee of recognition by another denomination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

Which denomination were your alleged rabbis?

[jeremyp]

No, I get that but surely you are treating Christianity and its various denominations/sects/subcults, differently from Judaism and its various denominations/sects/subcults? If one cannot convert to Judaism on the basis some bits of it may not accept you, then the same is true of converting to Christianity.

No no no.

Rules that apply to other religions do not apply to Christianity because it is the particular One True Way that Hope believes in. Christianity is special, hence, "special pleading".

[jeremyp]

Well he certainly wasn't a Christian, a religion which was created well after his death with him as the icon!

No, Floo, Christianity wasn't created 'well after' Jesus' death.  As we know from Acts, it began to be preached a month or two after his resurrection.  The term 'Christian' was originally a derogatory reference to the followers of Christ by the non-Christians in Antioch about 10 years later. 

If you are going to make such a claim, please make sure that - for your own benefit - it actually has the remotest degree of validity to it.

Assuming Acts is accurate, itself was written well after Jesus popped his clogs.

Paul's own writing backs up the idea that Christianity was spreading soon after Jesus' death. After all, Paul started out by persecuting Christians outside of Judea fairly soon after the death of Jesus and it had to have time to get to his part of the World.

[2Corrie]

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Before Israel even existed.

I think the answer is in understanding the covenants.

[Hope]

Assuming Acts is accurate, itself was written well after Jesus popped his clogs.

Paul's own writing backs up the idea that Christianity was spreading soon after Jesus' death. After all, Paul started out by persecuting Christians outside of Judea fairly soon after the death of Jesus and it had to have time to get to his part of the World.

Thanks for that jeremy.  Jaks, the majority of Biblical scholars give an authorship date for Paul's letter to the Galations - the first of his epistles that we have - of between 45 and 55 AD.  We also know that the churches he was writing to had been visited by him previously.  We also know that he had been involved in the events that surrounded the death of Stephen sometime around 34 AD.  He had then gone on to persecute the early church prior to his conversion - hence his journey to Damascus during which he saw his vision of Christ.

jeremy, the Bible suggests that Christianity hadn't so much travelled to his 'part of the world' - Tarsish - but that he had travelled to Jerusalem perhaps even arriving there before the death and resurrection of Christ.  However, for him to have travelled to Syria (Damascus) when he did suggests that the faith had been spreading out from Israel very early on.

[jakswan]

Assuming Acts is accurate, itself was written well after Jesus popped his clogs.

Paul's own writing backs up the idea that Christianity was spreading soon after Jesus' death. After all, Paul started out by persecuting Christians outside of Judea fairly soon after the death of Jesus and it had to have time to get to his part of the World.

Thanks for that jeremy.  Jaks, the majority of Biblical scholars give an authorship date for Paul's letter to the Galations - the first of his epistles that we have - of between 45 and 55 AD.  We also know that the churches he was writing to had been visited by him previously.  We also know that he had been involved in the events that surrounded the death of Stephen sometime around 34 AD.  He had then gone on to persecute the early church prior to his conversion - hence his journey to Damascus during which he saw his vision of Christ.

jeremy, the Bible suggests that Christianity hadn't so much travelled to his 'part of the world' - Tarsish - but that he had travelled to Jerusalem perhaps even arriving there before the death and resurrection of Christ.  However, for him to have travelled to Syria (Damascus) when he did suggests that the faith had been spreading out from Israel very early on.

Still quite a time after.

[Hope]

Still quite a time after.

If you regard a month or two 'quite a long time', jaks.

[Hope]

No no no.

Rules that apply to other religions do not apply to Christianity because it is the particular One True Way that Hope believes in. Christianity is special, hence, "special pleading".

As I said previously, jeremy, with the possible exception of Catholicism (I have heard a few people refer to having converted to Catholicism) Christians do not claim to have converted to a particular denomination.  They claim to have converted to/become Christians.  The different sects/denominations of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are far more discrete than the Christian denominations.

[jeremyp]

We also know that [Paul] had been involved in the events that surrounded the death of Stephen sometime around 34 AD.

Unlikely.

jeremy, the Bible suggests that Christianity hadn't so much travelled to his 'part of the world' - Tarsish - but that he had travelled to Jerusalem perhaps even arriving there before the death and resurrection of Christ.

No.

Paul himself strongly implies he didn't go to Jerusalem - at least not to persecute Christians - before his conversion. He says that, when he visited Jerusalem a number of years later, the Christians did not know him. The implication, therefore, is that he did not persecute them at any time, otherwise they would surely know him.

Acts should be regarded as a very unreliable document.

[jeremyp]

Christians do not claim to have converted to a particular denomination.  They claim to have converted to/become Christians.

What they claim is irrelevant. It's what they are that counts.

The different sects/denominations of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are far more discrete than the Christian denominations.

Really? Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, Methodists. These are just the discrete denominations that come off the top of my head. There are many more.

[Hope]

Christians do not claim to have converted to a particular denomination.  They claim to have converted to/become Christians.

What they claim is irrelevant. It's what they are that counts.

I agree, but that is rather outside the scope of this perticular thread.

Really? Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, Methodists. These are just the discrete denominations that come off the top of my head. There are many more.

Read my post again, j.  I used the phrase ' ... more discrete than ... '

At the same time, I notice that you have included Mormons and JWs which are not even sects, let alone denominations of Christianity.  Secular law counts them as separate religions, as does Christianity.