Author Topic: Newsflash  (Read 23050 times)

Red Giant

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2015, 04:52:48 AM »
At the same time, I notice that you have included Mormons and JWs which are not even sects, let alone denominations of Christianity.  Secular law counts them as separate religions, as does Christianity.
It's fractal.  It's like beetles in the evolutionary tree, millions of species, but in relation to the wider tree they're all just one branch of the insects. 

Trinitarianism has managed to propagate the view that it's the one true Christianity, but a more rational system would use the word Christianity to cover all faiths centred on the NT.

There's less difference between the lot of them than there was between flavours of 1st-century Judaism.

Actually though, Jewish and Christian thinking has dominated the culture to the extent that even we atheists are somewhere way down that branch of the tree. 

The answer to the question Why aren't we all Jews? is that we all are, it's just that the word Jew has become much more specialised than it used to be.

If Tiberius or Tacitus came back today, they'd think we were all Jews.  Even the neo-pagans would think like Jews to an ancient Roman mind.  Their thinking was stranger than we can imagine.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 04:55:57 AM by Red Giant »

floo

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2015, 09:41:31 AM »
Christians do not claim to have converted to a particular denomination.  They claim to have converted to/become Christians.
What they claim is irrelevant. It's what they are that counts.
I agree, but that is rather outside the scope of this perticular thread.

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Really? Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, Methodists. These are just the discrete denominations that come off the top of my head. There are many more.
Read my post again, j.  I used the phrase ' ... more discrete than ... '

At the same time, I notice that you have included Mormons and JWs which are not even sects, let alone denominations of Christianity.  Secular law counts them as separate religions, as does Christianity.

Christianity has many dogmas, doctrines, sects and cults, some crazier than others. I regard the extreme fundies as being a cult.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2015, 09:46:09 AM »
Read my post again, j.  I used the phrase ' ... more discrete than ... '

Isn't more discrete like almost unique?

Sassy

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2015, 10:01:06 AM »
The Lord was Jewish!

Well you learn something everyday  :o

Because all are sons of God now no difference between Jew and Gentile all who believe what God has said are children of the most high God.
Christian -ity is an insult name for those who believe Jesus is the Jews promised Messiah.
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floo

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2015, 10:39:19 AM »
How can you be a 'son' of the deity if you are female?

Sassy

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2015, 03:02:20 PM »
How can you be a 'son' of the deity if you are female?
Because there is no difference between male and female in Christ.
Children of God whether male or female all priests together.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

floo

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2015, 03:34:43 PM »
How can you be a 'son' of the deity if you are female?
Because there is no difference between male and female in Christ.
Children of God whether male or female all priests together.

The use of the word 'son' implies a male of the species doesn't it?

ekim

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2015, 04:09:45 PM »
How can you be a 'son' of the deity if you are female?
Because there is no difference between male and female in Christ.
Children of God whether male or female all priests together.

The use of the word 'son' implies a male of the species doesn't it?
'Son of' is a Hebrew idiom probably used because of a deficiency in adjectives in the language.  Others are 'father of', 'brother of' 'daughter of' 'mother of'.  Two of Jesus followers were referred to as 'sons of thunder' which is translated as impetuous.  Son of man .... human (qualities), son of God .... divine (qualities).

Hope

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2015, 06:10:56 PM »
It's fractal.  It's like beetles in the evolutionary tree, millions of species, but in relation to the wider tree they're all just one branch of the insects. 
I like the analogy, RG, but when one looks at the JWs and Mormons, you realise that they are closer to Islam in the way that they regard Jesus as a human and a prophet than to Christianity.

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Trinitarianism has managed to propagate the view that it's the one true Christianity, ...
whereas I would argue that non-Trinitarian ideas have tried to jump on the 'Christian' bandwagon, rather than Trinitarianism propogating the 'view that it's the one true Christianity'.  I accept that it wasn't until the 3rd century or so that the Trinitarian principle was finally tied down, but when one looks at the New Testament, even the oldest documents have it as a core concept, without which the life, death and resurrection of Jesus actually has no meaning.  Furthermore, the idea of a single God being multi-faceted goes back to the Old Testament
 
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... but a more rational system would use the word Christianity to cover all faiths centred on the NT.
In fact that would be one of the most irrational ideas out.  There are so many sects and groupings who use the name 'Jesus/Christ' as a sort of hook, but without using any of the rest of the NT, as to make that a non-starter.  You might as well continue to call Buddhism a sect of Hindism!!

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There's less difference between the lot of them than there was between flavours of 1st-century Judaism.
I'd disagree; the difference between, say,  Mormonism and mainstream Christianity is probably greater than between Islam and Christianity.

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The answer to the question Why aren't we all Jews? is that we all are, it's just that the word Jew has become much more specialised than it used to be.
Sorry, but the word Jew has very specific meanings, both ethnically and religiously. 

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If Tiberius or Tacitus came back today, they'd think we were all Jews.  Even the neo-pagans would think like Jews to an ancient Roman mind.  Their thinking was stranger than we can imagine.
I very much doubt it.  After all, even they realised the difference between the Jews and the early Church
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Hope

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2015, 06:13:24 PM »
The use of the word 'son' implies a male of the species doesn't it?
But does the original Greek word actually have a gender connotation, Floo?  Its the problem of arguing theologically from a 3rd or 4th language basis. 
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trippymonkey

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2015, 06:43:35 PM »
It's fractal.  It's like beetles in the evolutionary tree, millions of species, but in relation to the wider tree they're all just one branch of the insects. 
I like the analogy, RG, but when one looks at the JWs and Mormons, you realise that they are closer to Islam in the way that they regard Jesus as a human and a prophet than to Christianity.

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Then they're as stupid as Islam. What exactly did Jesus do to qualify as a prophet?

2Corrie

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2015, 06:53:34 PM »
How can you be a 'son' of the deity if you are female?
Because there is no difference between male and female in Christ.
Children of God whether male or female all priests together.

The use of the word 'son' implies a male of the species doesn't it?

It implies heirship as in:

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
"It is finished."

jeremyp

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2015, 06:54:11 PM »
What they claim is irrelevant. It's what they are that counts.
I agree, but that is rather outside the scope of this perticular thread.

Not when we are arguing about what they are.

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Really? Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, Methodists. These are just the discrete denominations that come off the top of my head. There are many more.
Read my post again, j.  I used the phrase ' ... more discrete than ... '

At the same time, I notice that you have included Mormons and JWs which are not even sects, let alone denominations of Christianity. 
You are claiming that Christianity is less discrete than denominations of other religions and yet here you are pointing out that two offshoots of Christianity: Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnessism are both so discrete that many Christians (and secular law according to you, but I have my doubts) don't regard them as being Christian sects at all.

You have just proved my point.
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2Corrie

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2015, 07:38:11 PM »
Well I would share communion with any born again methodist, baptist, Anglican, brethren, etc brother, but I would most certainly not with a JW or Mormon!
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jeremyp

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2015, 07:42:00 PM »
Well I would share communion with any born again methodist, baptist, Anglican, brethren, etc brother, but I would most certainly not with a JW or Mormon!
Another confirmation of the point.
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Hope

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2015, 10:42:19 PM »
You are claiming that Christianity is less discrete than denominations of other religions and yet here you are pointing out that two offshoots of Christianity: Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnessism are both so discrete that many Christians (and secular law according to you, but I have my doubts) don't regard them as being Christian sects at all.

You have just proved my point.
Except that, if you look at their histories, they are not off-shoots of Christianity.
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trippymonkey

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2015, 10:47:54 PM »
It would greatly help all concerned if you could actually tell us exactly WHAT Christianity is ?!?!?!?
NOT what YOU think it is but what IT ITSELF tells us it is, please????

Hope

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2015, 10:52:50 PM »
Well I would share communion with any born again methodist, baptist, Anglican, brethren, etc brother, but I would most certainly not with a JW or Mormon!
Another confirmation of the point.
What, confirmation that Mormonism and JWs aren't Christian?  I suspect that 2Corrie wouldn't take communion with LDSs or JWs because their understanding of 'The Lord's Supper' is so different to any mainstream Christian denomination.
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Hope

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2015, 11:09:52 PM »
It would greatly help all concerned if you could actually tell us exactly WHAT Christianity is ?!?!?!?
NOT what YOU think it is but what IT ITSELF tells us it is, please????
I assume that you are asking me, Nick?

Jesus makes it very clear that the understanding that led to its adherents being known as 'Christians' some 10-12 years after his death and resurrection is all about relationship; relationship with the Creator God and relationship with other believers.  He also makes it very clear that this wasn't something merely for the Jews - in fact, salvation would come 'from' the Jews, that it was for all humanity for all time, and that it was dependent on his death and resurrection from the death.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 11:12:14 PM by Hope »
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trippymonkey

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2015, 08:25:01 AM »
Yes H, it WAS for you thanks.
Did Jesus come to make us all Christians or 'better' Jews?

floo

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2015, 08:26:39 AM »
How can you be a 'son' of the deity if you are female?
Because there is no difference between male and female in Christ.
Children of God whether male or female all priests together.

The use of the word 'son' implies a male of the species doesn't it?

It implies heirship as in:

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

It is sexist! :o

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2015, 09:32:54 AM »
How can you be a 'son' of the deity if you are female?
Because there is no difference between male and female in Christ.
Children of God whether male or female all priests together.

The use of the word 'son' implies a male of the species doesn't it?

It implies heirship as in:

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

It is sexist! :o

Pathetic!  If Jesus refers to God as "Father,"  that is enough for me.  Your opinion is as narrow and thoughtless as ever.
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

trippymonkey

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2015, 09:45:29 AM »
All 3 Abrahamic religions are sexist. It's how those pathetic 'men' of the period tried to keep the ladies 'down'.
No wonder they hate any religion which celebrate the female principle re goddesses etc  ;) ;D

Nick

Owlswing

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2015, 10:07:08 AM »
All 3 Abrahamic religions are sexist. It's how those pathetic 'men' of the period tried to keep the ladies 'down'.
No wonder they hate any religion which celebrate the female principle re goddesses etc  ;) ;D

Nick

Pagans?
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trippymonkey

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Re: Newsflash
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2015, 04:01:08 PM »
Which group are you asking me to put Pagans in ?!?!??