The USA and guns - again

[Aruntraveller]

It took them 2 seconds to decide to shoot someone. Really, that quick? They got out of the car and shot. Are  you telling me that if it had been a white boy in a similar situation that the outcome would have been the same?

Note at no point did I say the police were to blame - but there is something wrong with this response (partly no doubt due to the gun culture of the USA entwined with racism) to a 12 year old boy.

You are talking great big dangly things - I suspect purely out of the need to defend your initial knee jerk reaction to Sririams post.

[Owlswing]

It took them 2 seconds to decide to shoot someone. Really, that quick? They got out of the car and shot. Are  you telling me that if it had been a white boy in a similar situation that the outcome would have been the same?

Note at no point did I say the police were to blame - but there is something wrong with this response (partly no doubt due to the gun culture of the USA entwined with racism) to a 12 year old boy.

You are talking great big dangly things - I suspect purely out of the need to defend your initial knee jerk reaction to Sririams post.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference.

If it were a white boy reported to be carrying a gun? Quite possibly.

Nowhere have I even tried to justify the shooting of a child. I merely state that one, no parent should allow their child out in public carrying a gun and so the parents must carry some of the responsibility for thgeir child's deah; two - any child, regardless of race or age, will know that all cops in the US are likely to be trigger-happy if they know that the child is carrying a gun, real or imitation, and the child's immediate reaction to seeing the cops is to reach for the gun or in the direction of the gun, assume the worst; three - in thge abscence of sure and certain knowledge that the gun is an imitation cops are likely to act on the worst case sceario.

The death of any child is to be considered to be horrific, but each must be treated as an individual case not all lumped together.   

[Aruntraveller]

I wish you would follow the thread.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference

I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.

[Nearly Sane]

I wish you would follow the thread.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference

I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.

Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.

[Owlswing]

I wish you would follow the thread.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference

I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.

Apologies!

[Owlswing]

I wish you would follow the thread.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference

I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.

Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.

What???

[Nearly Sane]

I wish you would follow the thread.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference

I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.

Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.

What???

If you want to look at possible bias it will be overall figures that reveal it, not individual cases.


As to the loud shirt

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y

[Owlswing]

I wish you would follow the thread.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference

I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.

Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.

What???

If you want to look at possible bias it will be overall figures that reveal it, not individual cases.


As to the loud shirt

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y

I am not questioning the "possible bias". I am questioning the wisdom, in the light of the very obvious bias in US police attitudes to young men of colour, of a young man of colour going out in public with a gun - real or imitation - or of parents of young men of colour allowing their children to go out in public in possession of such an article.

[Nearly Sane]

And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.

[Owlswing]

And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.

They are not hard to find - google "USA teenage deaths by firearms".

[Nearly Sane]

And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.

They are not hard to find - google "USA teenage deaths by firearms".

That's a frankly bizarre reply from someone who was arguing you should only look at individual cases.

[Owlswing]

And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.

They are not hard to find - google "USA teenage deaths by firearms".

That's a frankly bizarre reply from someone who was arguing you should only look at individual cases.

Don't be daft. I am saying that each case should be looked at individually to see where it actually fits into the matrix of the bias figures and then allocated to the correct place within those figures.

[Nearly Sane]

So they shouldn't be 'lumped together' for statistical analysis or they should?

[Aruntraveller]

I wish you would follow the thread.

No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference

I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.

Apologies!

No worries.

[jeremyp]

So they shouldn't be 'lumped together' for statistical analysis or they should?

The way the statistics are created is by looking at all the cases where people have been shot by the police and counting how many victims were black and how many were white. You can then compare the ratio with the ratio of black and white people in the general population.

There is a problem though: do we have a statistically significant sample? There have been a large number of cases recently where the police have erroneously shot somebody who usually turns out to be black, but is this statistically significant or is it a random cluster. I am not qualified to answer that question.

There are other possible problems too. Are the incidents we get to hear about representative? Perhaps there are many incidents of white people getting shot by the police, but the media filters them out. The "racist police" trope makes a story more newsworthy. Furthermore, to get a full picture, we need to analyse the armed encounters between police and members of the public where nobody got shot. I doubt if anybody is counting those.

[Nearly Sane]

And? Any analysis of stats will always need a certain amount of 'lumping together '. Treating cases simply as individuals does not allow for that.

[Harrowby Hall]

My bet: JC will consider this disgusting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34507760 

[Sriram]

So what we know is that there was a report on a young guy pointing a gun at people. That's what those two officers were told. That the gun maybe fake was not told to them. They stopped the police car and jumped and that kid reached for his waste where he had his gun and the officers shot. This is exactly what they were suppose to do and the investigation holds that up. I hold that twelve year old and his neglectful parents fully responsible.

Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.

"All you need is money"   David Dyson

Ok...!   If a 7-8 year old boy or girl is seen holding and pointing towards them what looks like a real gun...will the police similarly shoot the child dead?! Is that their brief?!  No warning...no attempt at talking and convincing the person...no attempt at understanding the person....no nothing?!!!


 

[Harrowby Hall]

So what we know is that there was a report on a young guy pointing a gun at people. That's what those two officers were told. That the gun maybe fake was not told to them. They stopped the police car and jumped and that kid reached for his waste where he had his gun and the officers shot. This is exactly what they were suppose to do and the investigation holds that up. I hold that twelve year old and his neglectful parents fully responsible.

Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.

"All you need is money"   David Dyson

Ok...!   If a 7-8 year old boy or girl is seen holding and pointing towards them what looks like a real gun...will the police similarly shoot the child dead?! Is that their brief?!  No warning...no attempt at talking and convincing the person...no attempt at understanding the person....no nothing?!!!

Unfortunately, Sriram, it would seem that the price the USA pays for its constitutional right to bare arms is that life has become cheap.

I sometimes am forced to the conclusion that no longer is it permissable just to carry a gun but there is an obligation to use it at the most opportune moments. If you see a person with what appears to be a gun, there is clearly a risk to your safety - it is therefore your duty to eliminate that risk.

I'm sure these policemen would kill a six-month old baby if it were perceive to be a threat ... providing it was black, of course.


In England, a few months ago, the police were informed that a man was waving a sword in the street. They got to him and tasered him, thereby eliminating the risk of hazard to other people.

Then they learned  that he was a blind man using a white stick.

Act first and pick up the pieces later is not just the prerogative of Americans ....

[Aruntraveller]

Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.

And your point?

Gun Murders per 100,000 of the population:

USA - 3.55

UK - 0.05

Oh that's right. You haven't got a point.

[Sriram]

So what we know is that there was a report on a young guy pointing a gun at people. That's what those two officers were told. That the gun maybe fake was not told to them. They stopped the police car and jumped and that kid reached for his waste where he had his gun and the officers shot. This is exactly what they were suppose to do and the investigation holds that up. I hold that twelve year old and his neglectful parents fully responsible.

Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.

"All you need is money"   David Dyson

Ok...!   If a 7-8 year old boy or girl is seen holding and pointing towards them what looks like a real gun...will the police similarly shoot the child dead?! Is that their brief?!  No warning...no attempt at talking and convincing the person...no attempt at understanding the person....no nothing?!!!

Unfortunately, Sriram, it would seem that the price the USA pays for its constitutional right to bare arms is that life has become cheap.

I sometimes am forced to the conclusion that no longer is it permissable just to carry a gun but there is an obligation to use it at the most opportune moments. If you see a person with what appears to be a gun, there is clearly a risk to your safety - it is therefore your duty to eliminate that risk.

I'm sure these policemen would kill a six-month old baby if it were perceive to be a threat ... providing it was black, of course.


In England, a few months ago, the police were informed that a man was waving a sword in the street. They got to him and tasered him, thereby eliminating the risk of hazard to other people.

Then they learned  that he was a blind man using a white stick.

Act first and pick up the pieces later is not just the prerogative of Americans ....

Yes...I think you're right.

[jeremyp]

Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.

Most people don't have £800 to spend on an implement that will get them jail time if they are caught carrying them.

[Rhiannon]

Possibly. I did read a piece in the Washington Post not so long ago on how illegal guns are still relatively hard to come by in the UK.

[Owlswing]

Possibly. I did read a piece in the Washington Post not so long ago on how illegal guns are still relatively hard to come by in the UK.

How DARE you, Rhi?

How very dare you to challenge a fact posted by the ominpotent and all-knowing JC? JC, who knows more about the UK than the people who live here!

[Sriram]

http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/22/us/child-road-rage-killing/index.html

A man has confessed to the road rage killing of a 4-year-old girl in New Mexico, authorities said.

"There were two children in this truck that this animal decided to open fire on just because he happened to get cut off on the freeway," said Tanner Tixier, another police spokesman.