The USA and guns - again

[Sriram]

18 rounds were fired and the kid was shot five times. Why?...is not known yet. The officer probably knew the child's father.....and it could be a case of revenge for something.

http://us.cnn.com/2015/11/09/us/louisiana-child-shooting/index.html

[Rhiannon]

I haven't a clue, but I find this story really upsetting. 

[Owlswing]

From FaceBook

A Pissed Off Southern Pastor Tells It Like It Is!

I am a southern pastor and an educated professor who lives in rural Arkansas amidst folks who own guns and vote Republican. I hold college degrees, I preach in two churches, and I teach history in a respected four year college. I am not stupid.

But I am not allowed to put political signs in my yard or stickers on my car because it will offend my students and my congregants if they know how I truly believe, even though my gun toting friends can post all the memes promoting ignorance and violence they want, without fear. So instead, I will write an article and tell the whole damn world the truth:

1. I am a proud member of the Christian Left. Not only that; I find it very hard to believe that you can read the Bible and vote Republican right now. Intolerance and hatred are not in the teachings of my Christ.

2. I vote for Democrats. Every time. I would vote for a yellow dog before I voted Republican, just like my Ma and Pa before me. I do not find good in both parties like I say I do to keep you happy. I think Republican candidates are mostly ignorant and ridiculous in everything they say, and they absolutely do not represent my Christian values of love and mission.

3. I believe in freedom of speech, for everyone, even when they don’t agree with me, even when they are stupid.

4. AND freedom of religion, for everyone, even when they don’t agree with me, and aren’t Christian. I have friends who are some of the kindest people I know and they follow a different sacred text. I honor their faith, as they honor mine. To do otherwise, would not be Christ-like of me.

5. I live my life for God, but I do not think God belongs in our Constitution. Separation of church and state; It’s a thing. Look it up.

6. You cannot be both prejudiced and Christian. One prevents the other. No exceptions. If you are Christian, you don’t hate.

7. There is too much hate and there are too many guns in this country. And, I believe those things do not align with Christ’s command to love our neighbor. You cannot believe that guns are the way to save the world if you study Christ’s teachings. Peace, love, giving, acceptance, forgiveness; Christ taught all these things. I find no red scriptures on gun ownership or arming for peace. They just aren’t there. Get over it. You are not being a Christian if you put your faith in guns. How dare you post pro-gun propaganda after a school shooting. It is insensitive, and offensive, and immoral. Christ would NOT approve. People carrying guns are NOT saving lives. But the free availability of guns in this country is causing deaths which are reaching viral proportions. Enough is enough. I don’t care about your damned right to own guns. I am tired of children dying in this great country.

8. Consenting adults have a constitutional right to get a government document certifying their legal marriage. The 14th amendment guarantees it. Not only that, marriage is love, what this country is needing to combat the hate and violence we are infected with. Love and marriage are not what we should be focusing on. Starving children, mass shootings, immoral lobbying, planet destroying, violence, and hate, those are our problems.

9. Traditional marriage in the Bible is polygamous. Get a Bible and read it before you try to use it to support your hatred and intolerance.

10. The confederate flag is racist. It was flown by treasonous terrorists who fired on their own country and supported the enslavement of human beings. They lost that war and it is time to move on. If you want to show your southern pride, fly an American flag and be the true patriot you claim to be. Eat some biscuits and gravy and visit your dear old grandma. Go put flowers on the grave of your grandpa who probably fought for your right to grow up privileged. And show some appreciation for the great country you live in.

I am tired of thinking I can’t be openly honest about any of these things. Now, I am going to go pray for this great country I call home. And then, I am going to do what Christ would do. I am going to act. I am going to write my congressman, donate money to the candidates I support, and read real scholarly work on the issues of this country, so that I can form educated, rational opinions and be a contributing member to real change for the better in this rural paradise I love.

We are not all stupid here in rural, southern America. And it is time for the Christian Left in the South to stop being afraid to speak out.

About Melanie Tubbs

Melanie Tubbs is a professor, pastor, mother, Mimi, and true Arkansas woman. She lives with six cats and two dogs on a quiet hill in a rural county where she pastors a United Methodist Church and teaches history at the local university. Her slightly addictive personality comes out in shameful Netflix binges and a massive collection of books. Vegetarian cooking, reading mountains of books for her seminary classes, and crocheting for the churches prayer shawl ministry take up most of her free time, and sharing the love of Christ forms the direction of her life. May the Peace of Christ be with You.

[jeremyp]

18 rounds were fired and the kid was shot five times. Why?

There are no half measures where guns are concerned. Under normal circumstances (normal?) police officers fire their guns because they are in fear of their lives or the lives of other bystanders. They are trained to make sure the target is neutralised. This is not the movies, you don't shoot them in the leg, you make sure they are dead.

I have no idea why the officers started firing on the boy, but having started, their training probably kicked in which is why they fired so many shots.

[Rhiannon]

I can't bear to think about it, Jeremy.

[Owlswing]

18 rounds were fired and the kid was shot five times. Why?

There are no half measures where guns are concerned. Under normal circumstances (normal?) police officers fire their guns because they are in fear of their lives or the lives of other bystanders. They are trained to make sure the target is neutralised. This is not the movies, you don't shoot them in the leg, you make sure they are dead.

I have no idea why the officers started firing on the boy, but having started, their training probably kicked in which is why they fired so many shots.

What really appals me is theat the boy was non-verbal autistic - he couldn't even verbalise what pain he was in, or his shock! He died as he lived - in silence.

I trust that in the Summerlands he will find his voice if only to scream his agony into the ears of those who killed him.

May he walk with the Goddess until the time of his re-birth.

[Rhiannon]

I wish I could believe that as you do, Owlswing.

[Sriram]

Well...here we go again!  14 people killed in a shoot out in California at a center for developmental disabilities!

http://us.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html

**************

Two suspects died in a gun battle with police Wednesday hours after authorities say they burst into a holiday party at a center for people with developmental disabilities and killed 14 people.

But it was unclear whether the furious shootout with the male and female suspects was the end of a daylong manhunt after the mass shooting at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino.

The violence began around 11 a.m. at the convention building at the Inland Regional Center where employees with the county health department were attending a holiday event. Witnesses said at least two shooters opened fire, killing 14 people.

Another 17 people were hurt -- many wounded by bullets from automatic-style rifles, some injured in the panic to escape.

***************

As Obama said.....this is becoming routine. Nobody seems to be shocked anymore.

[Aruntraveller]

It's in their culture, pioneers and all that, Beverly hillbillies and Grandma and her gun 

I may be mis-reading your post but you seem to be treating it as a bit of a laugh.

If as you say it is in their culture - then they need to change their culture.

[BeRational]

I may be mis-reading your post but you seem to be treating it as a bit of a laugh.

If as you say it is in their culture - then they need to change their culture.

That might take some doing.

Not sure if you have been there, but it is pretty much entrenched.

I went to a pistol gun range over the ( I love guns). When I asked to be shown how to load and unload and generally operate this gun I had never seen before, he looked at me in disbelief. I told him I was English, and he just said something about you guys do not have guns, and how do your police operate?

[Udayana]

The USA has a democratic constitution and they can change their laws as they want. Their culture may or may not change, but again it is up to what they want.

I've never really understood why this should be matter for people in the UK or elsewhere to get worked up about.  After all, there are plenty of senseless deaths elsewhere that never get anywhere near the same media coverage.

Is it because we are dominated by American culture?

[floo]

This thread should be made a 'sticky' as sadly there are likely to be many more of these atrocities until the Americans crack down on guns!

[Aruntraveller]

The USA has a democratic constitution and they can change their laws as they want. Their culture may or may not change, but again it is up to what they want.

I've never really understood why this should be matter for people in the UK or elsewhere to get worked up about.  After all, there are plenty of senseless deaths elsewhere that never get anywhere near the same media coverage.

Is it because we are dominated by American culture?

To a certain extent it, I think yes. But I do also think it is genuine bewilderment on our part as we do not 'get' gun culture and to us it seems unthinkable that this number of deaths, on this scale can happen in what we view as a westrern democracy. Indeed, as others will no doubt point out, there are countries where gun ownership is as high, or nearly as high as the USA - but they have proportionally many fewer deaths. So why the huge difference?

It is an issue that is fascinating (OK that sounds a bit ghoulish) because we genuinely cannot comprehend why there is such a problem.

[Shaker]

... or such a hideous problem which on its face (I stress that part) appears to have such relatively straightforward solutions.

[BeRational]

... or such a hideous problem which on its face (I stress that part) appears to have such relatively straightforward solutions.

Nothing is simple when the person you are telling must do something, has a gun!

That's why they like them so much.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

It is an issue that is fascinating (OK that sounds a bit ghoulish) because we genuinely cannot comprehend why there is such a problem.

One issue I think is how we address the question, the Americans, the USA, gun tooting Americans, John Wayne, cowboys, as a simple Brit it boogles my mind that one man is in charge of such a vast country.

Gonnagle.

[Sriram]

Actually I was somewhat shocked at the rather  casual  'its their culture' comment. Dozens of people getting killed in random shootings is part of their 'culture'?! Really?!

More than the availability of guns (which is an issue no doubt) I am more shocked at random killings of people that the killer is not even directly connected with. Taking a gun and shooting some one who has hurt you personally is bad enough... but shooting dozens of people at random in schools, care centers and so on is unbelievable!

Just because guns are available does not mean varied people across the country would shoot down strangers and school mates and colleagues ...again and again, month after month! 

The discussion should be more about the psychology of the people than about the availability of guns IMO.

[jeremyp]

This thread should be made a 'sticky' as sadly there are likely to be many more of these atrocities until the Americans crack down on guns!

355 in mass shootings in the USA in 2015 so far.

It's a daily occurrence.

[jeremyp]

Dear Trent,

One issue I think is how we address the question

We don't. This is a US domestic issue and it is for the citizens of the USA to resolve.  All we can do is sit by helplessly watching the carnage whilst also pointing out that there is a way to at least reduce it that is in effect in almost every other Western democratic society.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Sorry, my point, we say America, we generalise, like calling me Scottish ( which I am ) but I am more Glaswegian than Scottish, a silly point, maybe.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

Interesting article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/gop-candidates-call-prayers-calf-massacre-article-1.2453261

Republicans offer prayers to a god that clearly isn't listening. Democrats call for action by humans.

[jeremyp]

Dear Jeremyp,

Sorry, my point, we say America, we generalise, like calling me Scottish ( which I am ) but I am more Glaswegian than Scottish, a silly point, maybe.

Gonnagle.

The problem with the "we" generalisation is that it implies that we are part of the problem. I am not, in any sense, part of the problem and these deaths are not on my conscience. I have a solution that I will give to any American that is prepared to listen to me.

They have a solution staring them in the face: they need to repeal the second amendment and institute much stricter gun controls.

[BeRational]

The problem with the "we" generalisation is that it implies that we are part of the problem. I am not, in any sense, part of the problem and these deaths are not on my conscience. I have a solution that I will give to any American that is prepared to listen to me.

They have a solution staring them in the face: they need to repeal the second amendment and institute much stricter gun controls.

I agree.

But I doubt they will.

[Shaker]

It won't happen until the Americans stop treating the Bill of Rights in the same way that fundamentalist Christians treat the Bible (fixed and unalterable for all time) and start to regard it as a document of a particular historical era no longer fit for purpose in certain respects. I won't hold my breath. People are apt to become unreasonable when they feel, rightly or wrongly, that their rights are being infringed, even if the said right is ultimately to the detriment of good order.

[Nearly Sane]

Given that it is based on the 2nd Amendment not sure how that can be, Shaker?


Leaving aside a literalist view would struggle to define Bob Jones and his assault rifle as a 'well armed militia'.