Attitudes and behaviour.

[Gordon]

Put mildly, the evidence is all around you; the orderedness that science is continually producing evidence of is just one of the bits of evidence.

Since science is naturalistic then it seems that you are claiming its findings as being evidence of 'god' - so what is your method of demonstrating that the natural is a consequence of the divine?

[Hope]

That isn't evidence for the existence of a deity.

There is a clear indication of intentional design running through the whole of the natural world, Floo.   This runs counter to the more naturalistic 'chaos theory' understanding that would apply if everything had simply occurred by coincidence - or 'accident'.  Mind you, the way that Western society seems to be disintegrating could indicate that this 'chaos' understanding has more to it than people might care to admit.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

In what way is it not evidence, all Gods creatures got a place in choir, some sing low some sing higher.

From the tiny quark to whole Universe it all works.

Gonnagle.

[Hope]

Since science is naturalistic then it seems that you are claiming its findings as being evidence of 'god' - so what is your method of demonstrating that the natural is a consequence of the divine?

See #426

[Stranger]

There is a clear indication of intentional design running through the whole of the natural world, Floo.

Design for what? How do you know it's design?

This runs counter to the more naturalistic 'chaos theory' understanding that would apply if everything had simply occurred by coincidence - or 'accident'.

What has chaos theory got to do with anything?

[Gordon]

See #426

Which is no more than a mix of fallacious assertions, such as begging the question.

[Stranger]

In what way is it not evidence, all Gods creatures got a place in choir, some sing low some sing higher.

The universe is ordered - if it wasn't then it would be impossible to have observers in it.

That order came about somehow.

God(s) don't explain order - they would already be ordered.

What is the evidence that order came about in the form of a god (or gods) rather than in the universe (or some other "larger" framework)?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

There is a clear indication of intentional design running through the whole of the natural world, Floo.   This runs counter to the more naturalistic 'chaos theory' understanding that would apply if everything had simply occurred by coincidence - or 'accident'.  Mind you, the way that Western society seems to be disintegrating could indicate that this 'chaos' understanding has more to it than people might care to admit.

So all of the following things were intentionally designed were they?

A bee.

A rock.

A tree.

A heart.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Hope,

I think design is the wrong word, go down that road and someone will smack you with a watch, is purpose a better word?

Dear Stranger,

Are you admitting that the Universe has order?

Is evolution ordered? not came across that word when reading about it!

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

Are you admitting that the Universe has order?

I don't see how it's an admission. Surely it's self evident that the universe operates according to certain patterns (which we approximate with physics)?

Is evolution ordered? not came across that word when reading about it!

Only in the sense that it needs inheritance with variation and that needs biology, which needs chemistry which needs physics.

[floo]

There is a clear indication of intentional design running through the whole of the natural world, Floo.   This runs counter to the more naturalistic 'chaos theory' understanding that would apply if everything had simply occurred by coincidence - or 'accident'.  Mind you, the way that Western society seems to be disintegrating could indicate that this 'chaos' understanding has more to it than people might care to admit.

It might be clear to you Hope, but not to many others on this forum.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Dear Hope,

I think design is the wrong word, go down that road and someone will smack you with a watch, is purpose a better word?

Dear Gonnagle,

I think you are very wise, however I don't think purpose gets you away from the obvious questions.

So again to Hope,

Let's take the female birth canal as an example!

Tearing during childbirth is very common.

According to this data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3599825/), around 85% of women receive some damage, some others receive very serious damage indeed. I didn't even realise there was a 4th degree tear up till now.

I would put it to him, that if he were the manufacturer of polo neck sweaters and for 85% of the ones he sold the stitching came apart when someone tried to put their head though the neck hole, he would soon go out of business.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stephano,

I think purpose is a excellent word,

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/purpose

What obvious questions are you referring to?

Childbirth, are we still evolving? given that modern man is but a blip on the map, a microscopical blip in evolutionary terms, are we interfering with the natural order of things with our modern medicine.

Gonnagle.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Dear Stephano,

I think purpose is a excellent word,

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/purpose

Still implies intent  though.

What obvious questions are you referring to?

That if all that is around us is there as a result of intentional design, then when we see such things as tearing in childbirth, is it because that it was the best the designer could come up with, or is he a bit sadistic.

Childbirth, are we still evolving? given that modern man is but a blip on the map, a microscopical blip in evolutionary terms, are we interfering with the natural order of things with our modern medicine.

Gonnagle.

Pretty sure tearing has been going on well before the arrival of modern medicine. Also, pretty sure it is a lot less dangerous now.

[jeremyp]

There is a clear indication of intentional design running through the whole of the natural world, Floo. 

No there isn't.

The evidence points to everything in the natural world arising through processes that are described by physical law. The are stars and planets thanks to the mindless processes of gravity and quantum mechanics. There are trees and flowers thanks to the mindless processes of evolution.

Imagine you are walking through a desert. You come across a watch on the ground and you immediately realise it was designed. This implies that designed things like watches possess a quality that natural things like sand dunes, cacti and scorpions do not have.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Hope,

Told you so

Gonnagle.

[Sassy]

So how do you know the writers of the bible can be trusted?

ht

It is the God and where the writings came from which can be trusted.
Do any of us in this life time know the writers?
We know the author and giver of the Words to man.

[floo]

It is the God and where the writings came from which can be trusted.
Do any of us in this life time know the writers?
We know the author and giver of the Words to man.

You want to believe god was the influence behind the Bible, but you have no evidence it is so. Besides which as much of what is attributed to the deity is wicked, it should be ignored.

[Sassy]

So all of the following things were intentionally designed were they?

A bee.

Of course it keeps us alive with the pollinating they do on the planet. We would not have a lot of the food crops.

A rock.

Would there be anything to protect us if the world was flat?

A tree.

Apples, pears etc and of course the paper and wood to build houses. Oxygen....

A heart.

Is the centre of the human matter.... it keeps all the other organs going by pumping the life giving blood.

In creation we know that everything has a purpose....

But not everything is always built for a purpose. Where would the ark have landed if Mount Ararat did not exist.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Of course it keeps us alive with the pollinating they do on the planet. We would not have a lot of the food crops.
Would there be anything to protect us if the world was flat?
 Apples, pears etc and of course the paper and wood to build houses. Oxygen....
 Is the centre of the human matter.... it keeps all the other organs going by pumping the life giving blood.

In creation we know that everything has a purpose....

But not everything is always built for a purpose. Where would the ark have landed if Mount Ararat did not exist.

What is the purpose of the Influenza virus?

[Rhiannon]

Dear Stephano,

I think purpose is a excellent word,

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/purpose

What obvious questions are you referring to?

Childbirth, are we still evolving? given that modern man is but a blip on the map, a microscopical blip in evolutionary terms, are we interfering with the natural order of things with our modern medicine.

Gonnagle.

What exactly do you mean, Gonners? Without 'modem medicine' my daughter would at best have had severe disabilities due to birth asphyxia. The doctor informed me st the time that they had ten minutes to get me into theatre and perform a section otherwise they wouldn't be able to save her. The natural order would be that she would most likely be dead.

[Leonard James]

Childbirth, are we still evolving? given that modern man is but a blip on the map, a microscopical blip in evolutionary terms, are we interfering with the natural order of things with our modern medicine.

Yes, we are in one sense. We are using medical knowledge to save people who are genetically unsuitable to survive in the environment without it. This will automatically be detrimental to the human gene bank in the long run.

However, we can argue that our medical knowledge is part of the environment, and thus "natural". Add to that the instinctive need to consider ourselves more important than any other life form, and that justifies our 'interference'.

Eventually we are going to reach a point when the medical attention needed to keep everybody alive is going to be too great to maintain. Hopefully genetic engineering will stave off doomsday. 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

Simply putting the question out there, in my own bull in a china shop way, I am fascinated by the way modern science is now looking more at how nature works and learning from it, copying it, nature, evolution has been at it for billions of years, but please don't get me wrong, I am a champion of modern science, we this little blip on the map, man who Auditors tell me are nothing special striving to become little gods, the ability to preserve and enhance life but also the ability to take it away with a push of the button, we are a fascinating species but we need to keep a close eye on our achievements.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What is the purpose of the Influenza virus?

We don't know yet.

That should be a perfectly acceptable answer especially for the guffers on about the virtue of answering in the agnostic.
It should also in their books shut down any thought on the matter.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

We don't know yet.
That should be a perfectly acceptable answer especially for the guffers on about the virtue of answering in the agnostic.

It is fine by me.

However, I would think that if you hold the view that all is intentionally designed by the a (3 x Omni) God then it would give pause for thought regarding the omnibenevolent claim since influenza is something that we all seem to want to try and eradicate.

Not saying that it proves God doesn't exist but it's the kind of thing that makes me think anyway.

It should also in their books shut down any thought on the matter.

As a professional scientist if that were my view I would put myself out of a job.