Halloween the roots of

[Bubbles]

.

[Owlswing]

Samhain - pronounced Sah-wain - depending on where and who you learnt it from!

It was the old Celtic New Year and many modern pagans celebrate it as such.

It is, in other parts of the world, and here JC's ears prick up because he had a long diatribe about prople setting a place at table for the departed during the Feast of the Dead which is held on the Día de Muertos, the Day of the Dead.

In his usual pig-ignorant fashion he could not understand the difference between "laying a place" for the departed and actually serviing food for them.

Samhain is celebrated by pagans as the Celtic New Year, the final harvest of the year, the time when nature shuts down for the dark part of the year and is the counter to Beltaine or Beltane on May 1st which is the major fertility festival.

It is a time when all those who were loved, respected, or are for any reason missed after having passed over to the Summerlands, are remembered, their lives celebrated.

It is believed by most pagans that this is the time when the veils between the worlds of the living and of the dead are at their thinnest and it is frequently a time when pagans, individually or in a group or as a Coven, will, as part of a ritual, meditate upon the memory of friends now in the Summerlands and will sit in silence and wait to see if the dead wish to speak to them.

Please note, we do NOT ask them to speak to us. It is their decision as to whether or not they contact us, their prerogative. Hence the pagan community's "dead aginst it" attitude to the Ouija Board.   

The festival which is called Samhain, like Yule, Ostara, May Day/Beltaine, were celebrated long before the coming of Christianity to these islands but, and there are posters here who vehermently deny this, but it is too much to be a coincidence that so many Christian festivals and holy days fall on or very close to pagan ones for it not to have been a delibertate ploy to get pagans to celebrate the Christian fesival by having on the same day or very close to the same day as a pagan one.

Hope this helps.

[Hope]

The festival which is called Samhain, like Yule, Ostara, May Day/Beltaine, were celebrated long before the coming of Christianity to these islands but, and there are posters here who vehermently deny this, but it is too much to be a coincidence that so many Christian festivals and holy days fall on or very close to pagan ones for it not to have been a delibertate ploy to get pagans to celebrate the Christian fesival by having on the same day or very close to the same day as a pagan one.

Hope this helps.

The problem with the link with Samhain is that is uncertain when the ancients celebrated it.  Did the 'final harvest of the year' fall on or around the Celtic equivalent of the end of October?  Perhaps more importantly, the early celebrations of the Christian festival of All's Saint's Day appear to have taken place in the spring, and even today, that is when it is celebrated in Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism. 

All Saints' Day may originate in the ancient Roman observation of 13 May, the Feast of the Lemures, in which malevolent and restless spirits of the dead were propitiated. Liturgiologists base the idea that this Lemuria festival was the origin of that of All Saints on their identical dates and on the similar theme of "all the dead"

(wikipedia)

Some authors believe that the October/November dates are Germanic in origin, and that this was taken on board by the early Celtic Church.

Regarding Matt's comment that

... it is too much to be a coincidence that so many Christian festivals and holy days fall on or very close to pagan ones for it not to have been a delibertate ploy to get pagans to celebrate the Christian fesival by having on the same day or very close to the same day as a pagan one.

it should be remembered that this habit of using existing dates for similar festivals pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years.  It was, and remains, typical of all belief-systems - political or religious.  We may eventually find that Samhain is a transplant of a pagan festival onto an existing festival from a previous religion.

[Owlswing]

The festival which is called Samhain, like Yule, Ostara, May Day/Beltaine, were celebrated long before the coming of Christianity to these islands but, and there are posters here who vehermently deny this, but it is too much to be a coincidence that so many Christian festivals and holy days fall on or very close to pagan ones for it not to have been a delibertate ploy to get pagans to celebrate the Christian fesival by having on the same day or very close to the same day as a pagan one.

Hope this helps.

it should be remembered that this habit of using existing dates for similar festivals pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years.  It was, and remains, typical of all belief-systems - political or religious.  We may eventually find that Samhain is a transplant of a pagan festival onto an existing festival from a previous religion.

The previous religions to paganism were pagan themselves.

[Rhiannon]

The setting a place for departed loved ones is a practice in Catholic families in Latin America, as Matt says.

We celebrate it with a seasonal feast - usually jacket potatoes, casseroles, crumbles, that kind of thing. The kids like to play games, decorate the house and dress up, and we usually find at least one spooky event to go to.

On a personal level I give thanks for what I have and remember those past.
 
In terms of its origins, of course Hallowe'en is Christian in origins -All Hallows Eve - but it was celebrated around the time of Samhain (deliberately or not) and the muddled folk religion of the past has given us many of today's traditions.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Rose,
The first Passover was celebrated on the first anniversary of the Hebrews actual exodus from Egypt. Elijah came along much, much later, when the Hebrews were divided into two nations. He had his ministry during the 9th century BC. So we know the setting of a place for this fella was a perversion by the religious leaders. In fact Christ went at them for perverting the commands of God with their traditions. Christ washed the feet of his disciples before Passover, not an actual part of the Passover ceremony and no mention of setting a place for Elijah. It's a grasp to suggest Christ set a place at His Passover table for Elijah.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Dearest Matty,
"pig-ignorant" what a laugh. Anybody with some education knows that swine are wise and clean. Too funny you.

[Owlswing]

Dearest Matty,
"pig-ignorant" what a laugh. Anybody with some education knows that swine are wise and clean. Too funny you.

Show me the pig that can calculate 50% of 10 then!

[Hope]

The previous religions to paganism were pagan themselves.

Ancestor-worship, animism, Bon, spiritism and other ancient religions aren't generally regarded as elements of paganism.  Or are you seeking to claim all non-abrahamic faiths as paganism?

[Owlswing]

The previous religions to paganism were pagan themselves.

Ancestor-worship, animism, Bon, spiritism and other ancient religions aren't generally regarded as elements of paganism.  Or are you seeking to claim all non-abrahamic faiths as paganism?

No, I am not claiming anything - the Bishop of bath and Wells stated it as a fact in a discussion/lecture by him and Professor Ronald Hutton at Bristol Uni about five years ago. His exact words were - any religion or belief that may be interpreted as a religion which pre-dates Judaism, Christanity and Islam is, by that pre-dating, classifiable as Pagan!

Part of MY life experience that, in this case, aces yours!

[Rhiannon]

The previous religions to paganism were pagan themselves.

Ancestor-worship, animism, Bon, spiritism and other ancient religions aren't generally regarded as elements of paganism.  Or are you seeking to claim all non-abrahamic faiths as paganism?

Ancestor-worship and animism are both elements of western paganism.

And as Matt says, pre-Abrahamic faiths are regarded as pagan.

[Owlswing]

The previous religions to paganism were pagan themselves.

Ancestor-worship, animism, Bon, spiritism and other ancient religions aren't generally regarded as elements of paganism.  Or are you seeking to claim all non-abrahamic faiths as paganism?

Ancestor-worship and animism are both elements of western paganism.

And as Matt says, pre-Abrahamic faiths are regarded as pagan.

Except, apparently, by Hope!

[OH MY WORLD!]

Well dear matty let's compare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mza1EQ6aLdg



http://www.allcoast.com/photos/data/500/103926dumb%20witch%202872-med.jpg

[Owlswing]

Well dear matty let's compare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mza1EQ6aLdg



http://www.allcoast.com/photos/data/500/103926dumb%20witch%202872-med.jpg

Compare what?
 And with what?

[Owlswing]

For example :


I read that some of it had Pagan roots but then I read it hasn't got any known link to Samhain for example as in the link below.

It has become commonplace to trace its roots even further back in time to a pagan festival of ancient Ireland known as Samhain (pronounced sow'-en or sow'-een), about which little is actually known. The prehistoric observance is said to have marked the end of summer and the onset of winter, and was celebrated with feasting, bonfires, sacrificial offerings, and homage to the dead.

Despite thematic similarities, there's scant evidence of any real historical continuity linking Samhain to the medieval observance of Halloween, however.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/halloween/a/History-Of-Halloween.htm

So is it something that links to Paganism or do some people just assume it does?

🌹

Rose,

Try looking at

http://Http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/28/halloween-more-than-trick-or-treat-origins

it was written by Professor Ronald Hutton of Bristol University whose speciality is Early Modern history, paricularly regarding paganism (he is, I believe, a Druid) and he has written several books on paganism, all of which, if you are interested, are well worth reading.

[Sassy]

Some say it's Christian, others that its roots are in Paganism.

What do you think?

Today's Halloween customs are thought to have been influenced by folk customs and beliefs from the Celtic-speaking countries, some of which have pagan roots, and others which may be rooted in Celtic Christianity.[32][33] Indeed, Jack Santino, a folklorist, writes that "the sacred and the religious are a fundamental context for understanding Halloween in Northern Ireland, but there was throughout Ireland an uneasy truce existing between customs and beliefs associated with Christianity and those associated with religions that were Irish before Christianity arrived".[34]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

As it's almost here, I thought it might be fun to sort some of the truths from the fiction.

Which bits are really derived from Paganism and which bits from somewhere else?

🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃


👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻

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It is simply all souls night.
But the modern day is mainly down to the Americans... LOL.

I believe a lot of different beliefs have merged but more so they all have the same night basically to share the beliefs.

Who really knows where all the dates come from. But the belief in one God religion predates all the rest of the beliefs.
The Chinese having what appears to be the oldest belief over a million years they had one God belief.
Even been suggested the reason for the wise man coming from the East following the Star they have long charted maps for.

We can think many things but for the bigger part most beliefs are assumed rather than proved.

[Owlswing]

Some say it's Christian, others that its roots are in Paganism.

What do you think?

Today's Halloween customs are thought to have been influenced by folk customs and beliefs from the Celtic-speaking countries, some of which have pagan roots, and others which may be rooted in Celtic Christianity.[32][33] Indeed, Jack Santino, a folklorist, writes that "the sacred and the religious are a fundamental context for understanding Halloween in Northern Ireland, but there was throughout Ireland an uneasy truce existing between customs and beliefs associated with Christianity and those associated with religions that were Irish before Christianity arrived".[34]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

As it's almost here, I thought it might be fun to sort some of the truths from the fiction.

Which bits are really derived from Paganism and which bits from somewhere else?

🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃


👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻

🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮

It is simply all souls night.
But the modern day is mainly down to the Americans... LOL.

I believe a lot of different beliefs have merged but more so they all have the same night basically to share the beliefs.

Who really knows where all the dates come from. But the belief in one God religion predates all the rest of the beliefs.
The Chinese having what appears to be the oldest belief over a million years they had one God belief.
Even been suggested the reason for the wise man coming from the East following the Star they have long charted maps for.

We can think many things but for the bigger part most beliefs are assumed rather than proved.

Sassy, you really do talk a load of rubbish sometimes.

But the belief in one God religion predates all the rest of the beliefs.

the oldest religious atrifact ever found, dated to between 23,000 and 25,000 BCE, is FEMALE, a GODDESS figure named "The Venus of Willendorf". Your "one God religion" is less than one tenth as old - it is a Johnny-come-lately!

[Hope]

Some say it's Christian, others that its roots are in Paganism.

Halloween itself is clearly Christian - after all, it is short for All Hallow's Eve, a Christian festival.  That is not to say that there wasn't a pre-existing festival associated with a pre-existing faith.

For Pagans to claim Halloween as a Pagan festival is clearly a false claim, whilst claims that I have heard elsewhere that it is a purely Christian one (inclusive of the date) is equally false.

[Owlswing]

Some say it's Christian, others that its roots are in Paganism.

Halloween itself is clearly Christian - after all, it is short for All Hallow's Eve, a Christian festival.  That is not to say that there wasn't a pre-existing festival associated with a pre-existing faith.

For Pagans to claim Halloween as a Pagan festival is clearly a false claim, whilst claims that I have heard elsewhere that it is a purely Christian one (inclusive of the date) is equally false.

For once I (almost) agree with you.

Pagans do NOT claim Halloween is Pagan - it is, as you point out, an abbreviation of All Hallows Eve.

The dressing up nonsence is a purely an import from America.

What IS pagan is the earlier festival of Samhain (pronounced Sah-Wane) the Celtic New Year, the third and final harvest, and the festival of remembrance for thise who have passed to the Summerlands.

The only point of contention is the christian claim that THE DATE is theirs - wrong - we had it first.
 

[Hope]

The only point of contention is the christian claim that THE DATE is theirs - wrong - we had it first.

I'm not too sure about that, Matt.  I'm not sure whether All Hallow's Tide (the 3 day 'official' celebration) originated in the Orthodox or Roman Catholic tradition, but I'm not aware that there was a Samhain equivalent in Italy or the countries that adhere to Orthodoxy.  I am aware of the Roman 'Parentalia', but was that at this time of the year?

[Owlswing]

The only point of contention is the christian claim that THE DATE is theirs - wrong - we had it first.

I'm not too sure about that, Matt.  I'm not sure whether All Hallow's Tide (the 3 day 'official' celebration) originated in the Orthodox or Roman Catholic tradition, but I'm not aware that there was a Samhain equivalent in Italy or the countries that adhere to Orthodoxy.  I am aware of the Roman 'Parentalia', but was that at this time of the year?

In the countries under the grouping Celtic it predated Christianity! The Celtic New Year was celebrated long before Christianity raised its ugly head.

[BashfulAnthony]

Christianity is not "ugly,"  but some of these witches are gruesome-looking.   

[Shaker]

Christianity is not "ugly,"

Actually that's precisely and exactly how I see it.

[Hope]

In the countries under the grouping Celtic it predated Christianity! The Celtic New Year was celebrated long before Christianity raised its ugly head.

But Allhallowtide is not a purely North European/Celtic festival.  It formalised, in the 8th century, a commemorative event that had been started by the early Church in Palestine.  As such, it is not a Pagan festival.  Interestingly, the end of Oct/beginning of Nov isn't the only time it is held around the world:

The present date of Hallowmas (All Saints' Day) and thus also of its vigil (Hallowe'en) was established for Rome perhaps by Pope Gregory III (731-741) and was made of obligation throughout the Frankish Empire by Louis the Pious in 835. Elsewhere, other dates were observed even later, with the date in Ireland being 20 April. In the early 11th century, the modern date of All Souls' Day was popularized, after Abbot Odilo established it as a day for the monks of Cluny and associated monasteries to pray for the dead. In the United Kingdom, the Church of England, mother church of the Anglican Communion, extended All Saints-tide to include Remembrance Sunday in the 20th century.

Anthropological studies indicate that, throughout history, holy days associated with one religious practice have been adopted by subsequent religious practices, often as a way of helping the people to feel comfortable with the new ideas.  Matt, I'd be very surprised if the holy days you celebrate haven't been adopted by your form of paganism from previous forms of paganism, let alone ancestor worship, animism and other historical forms of religion.

As for Christianity having an 'ugly head', I suspect that it has no more of an ugly head as does your form of religion, when compared to previous forms - all of which were probably deemed to have ugly heads by many adherents to any previous form.

[Owlswing]

In the countries under the grouping Celtic it predated Christianity! The Celtic New Year was celebrated long before Christianity raised its ugly head.

But Allhallowtide is not a purely North European/Celtic festival.  It formalised, in the 8th century, a commemorative event that had been started by the early Church in Palestine.  As such, it is not a Pagan festival.  Interestingly, the end of Oct/beginning of Nov isn't the only time it is held around the world:

The present date of Hallowmas (All Saints' Day) and thus also of its vigil (Hallowe'en) was established for Rome perhaps by Pope Gregory III (731-741) and was made of obligation throughout the Frankish Empire by Louis the Pious in 835. Elsewhere, other dates were observed even later, with the date in Ireland being 20 April. In the early 11th century, the modern date of All Souls' Day was popularized, after Abbot Odilo established it as a day for the monks of Cluny and associated monasteries to pray for the dead. In the United Kingdom, the Church of England, mother church of the Anglican Communion, extended All Saints-tide to include Remembrance Sunday in the 20th century.

Anthropological studies indicate that, throughout history, holy days associated with one religious practice have been adopted by subsequent religious practices, often as a way of helping the people to feel comfortable with the new ideas.  Matt, I'd be very surprised if the holy days you celebrate haven't been adopted by your form of paganism from previous forms of paganism, let alone ancestor worship, animism and other historical forms of religion.

As for Christianity having an 'ugly head', I suspect that it has no more of an ugly head as does your form of religion, when compared to previous forms - all of which were probably deemed to have ugly heads by many adherents to any previous form.

Hope

Are you totally deaf, blind and bloody stupid!

I doi not give a tuppeny damn for Hallow Mass, All Hallows Day. All Saint's day or any other Christian festiival on or about October 31 - your refusal to go back any further into history than where your religion inflicted iteslf an anyone not previously Christian is not going to change the fact that your religion is, compared to mine, an absolute infant.

Unless and until you are prepared to take note of what I and Rhi tell you about our festivals I am not prepared to take any notice of any posts you make with reference to my religion from the viewpoint of yours! In other words, I will take as much notice of you comments on your religion as you take of my comments on mine - and I know a heck of a sight more about your religion, having been brought up in it for the first fifteen years of my life than you do about mine having had no more contact with it than on this forum. Contact that you have studiously chosen to ignore.