'Witchcraft' abuse cases on the rise in the UK

[Owlswing]

How incestuous this thread is becoming.

Posts and answers flashing to-and-fro on a thread about (supposedly) witchcraft. The only posts being ignored? Those ,made by the only (I think) bona fide witcg on the Forum!

Incidentally why is it that Christians can describe my beliefs in such a dismissive fashion but have an apoplectic fit or resort to juvenile name-calling if I do the same to them and even more so if I respond in kind; why is it that atheists do the same but usually without the name calling except, usually, for the word 'deluded'?

I therefore leave this thread to those who know absolutely sweet fuck all about the subject of withcraft in the 21qst century as it is practiced in the UK (and most of Europe and, in the more civilised and educated parts of the USA and Canada).

[floo]

The subject of this thread is actually about abusive religious extremists accusing people of being witches!

[Hope]

What gets me is that people who condemn people playing at being witches, and the subsequent mumbo jumbo which goes with that silliness, can't see that some practices associated with Christianity are equally daft.

And who and what would those be, Floo?  Remember that many Christians on this board quite happily state that we don't agree with or condone some of the practices performed in the name of Christianity.

[Leonard James]

Incidentally why is it that Christians can describe my beliefs in such a dismissive fashion but have an apoplectic fit or resort to juvenile name-calling if I do the same to them and even more so if I respond in kind; why is it that atheists do the same but usually without the name calling except, usually, for the word 'deluded'?

What else would you expect atheists to say to somebody who assigns the word 'god' to perfectly natural phenomena?

[Hope]

The subject of this thread is actually about abusive religious extremists accusing people of being witches!

Is that why you stated "Science will get there in the end. What we take for granted today would have seemed supernatural a few hundred years ago, like electricity for instance"?  The opening statement of that quote is - in view of the ways in which science has failed to answer many questions it has tried to answer over the centuries - an statement of extreme faith.

[Hope]

Incidentally why is it that Christians can describe my beliefs in such a dismissive fashion but have an apoplectic fit or resort to juvenile name-calling if I do the same to them and even more so if I respond in kind; why is it that atheists do the same but usually without the name calling except, usually, for the word 'deluded'?

I've seen no less abuse from atheists than from Christians regarding your beliefs, Matt. 

[Owlswing]

The subject of this thread is actually about abusive religious extremists accusing people of being witches!

Oh really?

Exorcisms are daft mumbo jumbo, no different to witchcraft

it is a nasty, pagan-type practice,

the stuff of fairy tales, swallowed only by the credulous.

believe in unfounded nonsense,

people playing at being witches, and the subsequent mumbo jumbo which goes with that silliness

this thread is actually about abusive religious extremists accusing people of being witches

I think not!

[Owlswing]

Incidentally why is it that Christians can describe my beliefs in such a dismissive fashion but have an apoplectic fit or resort to juvenile name-calling if I do the same to them and even more so if I respond in kind; why is it that atheists do the same but usually without the name calling except, usually, for the word 'deluded'?

I've seen no less abuse from atheists than from Christians regarding your beliefs, Matt.

READ THE POST QUOTED!

why is it that atheists do the same but usually without the name calling except, usually, for the word 'deluded'?

[Hope]

He will find no answers for his illness, whatever it is, in the Bible. He can only rely on the medical profession.

Sadly for you, Len, I know of several people who were told in no uncertain terms by the medical profession that they had X months to live, yet continued to live long beyond that timeframe?  In some cases, the individual asked Christian friends to pray that they would live beyond the medical professionals' timeframe.  In some cases, they didn't.  Can we really rely on the medical profession in the way you claim?

[Hope]

"why is it that atheists do the same but usually without the name calling except, usually, for the word 'deluded'?"

And I pointed out that I have seen no qualitative or quantitative evidence to suggest that Christians abuse you in ANY more unpleasant ways than atheists do. 

[floo]

He will find no answers for his illness, whatever it is, in the Bible. He can only rely on the medical profession.

Sadly for you, Len, I know of several people who were told in no uncertain terms by the medical profession that they had X months to live, yet continued to live long beyond that timeframe?  In some cases, the individual asked Christian friends to pray that they would live beyond the medical professionals' timeframe.  In some cases, they didn't.  Can we really rely on the medical profession in the way you claim?

Medics can be wrong of course and the human body can defy them. Nothing to do with any prayers unless it acts as a placebo, which I suppose it possible. If the blanky deity is capable of riding to the rescue why the hell don't it instead of playing stupid beggars, as in the case of Alan Burn's friend. I suppose if the poor lady does recover that so and so in the sky will get the praise, even though it should have cured her immediately if it was capable. If the lady doesn't recover, or is left disabled, the deity won't be blamed and excuses will be made!

[Leonard James]

Sadly for you, Len, I know of several people who were told in no uncertain terms by the medical profession that they had X months to live, yet continued to live long beyond that timeframe?  In some cases, the individual asked Christian friends to pray that they would live beyond the medical professionals' timeframe.  In some cases, they didn't.  Can we really rely on the medical profession in the way you claim?

The medical profession is not infallible, but it is the only effective recourse we have when we are ill.

Prayers and gods are just placebos.

[Leonard James]

Medics can be wrong of course and the human body can defy them. Nothing to do with any prayers unless it acts as a placebo, which I suppose it possible. If the blanky deity is capable of riding to the rescue why the hell don't it instead of playing stupid beggars, as in the case of Alan Burn's friend. I suppose if the poor lady does recover that so and so in the sky will get the praise, even though it should have cured her immediately if it was capable. If the lady doesn't recover, or is left disabled, the deity won't be blamed and excuses will be made!

Spot on, Roses!

[Outrider]

The subject of this thread is actually about abusive religious extremists accusing people of being witches!

Is that why you stated "Science will get there in the end. What we take for granted today would have seemed supernatural a few hundred years ago, like electricity for instance"?  The opening statement of that quote is - in view of the ways in which science has failed to answer many questions it has tried to answer over the centuries - an statement of extreme faith.

Whilst I'd agree that this expresses an element of faith in scientific progress that is not immediately justifiable by the available evidence, I'd put it in a different category to religious faith - neither is entirely justified, but science has a proven track-record that religion lacks.

O.

[Outrider]

He will find no answers for his illness, whatever it is, in the Bible. He can only rely on the medical profession.

Sadly for you, Len, I know of several people who were told in no uncertain terms by the medical profession that they had X months to live, yet continued to live long beyond that timeframe?  In some cases, the individual asked Christian friends to pray that they would live beyond the medical professionals' timeframe.  In some cases, they didn't.  Can we really rely on the medical profession in the way you claim?

Almost universally medical professionals are trained to tell people something like 'in situations like these we typically see people live x months'. That people take this as an absolute prediction - or that, under difficult circumstances, medical professionals sometimes don't get the wording exactly right - doesn't turn medical science into a fallacy.

The massive expansion in human population and average lifespans all over the world, the colossal drop in infant mortality and the eradication of several previously endemic diseases is testament to the efficacy of modern medicine.

That we cannot cure everything, yet, that there are still diseases and conditions that we don't know enough about to effectively categorise or treat says more about the diversity and complexity of life than it does about medicines failings.

O.

[jakswan]

Sadly for you, Len, I know of several people who were told in no uncertain terms by the medical profession that they had X months to live, yet continued to live long beyond that timeframe?  In some cases, the individual asked Christian friends to pray that they would live beyond the medical professionals' timeframe.  In some cases, they didn't.  Can we really rely on the medical profession in the way you claim?

So if someone goes to the Doctor asks the question 'What can be done' and the Doctor comes back with 'we'll pray for you' that will be good news.

[Owlswing]

Incidentally why is it that Christians can describe my beliefs in such a dismissive fashion but have an apoplectic fit or resort to juvenile name-calling if I do the same to them and even more so if I respond in kind; why is it that atheists do the same but usually without the name calling except, usually, for the word 'deluded'?

What else would you expect atheists to say to somebody who assigns the word 'god' to perfectly natural phenomena?

I expect atheists to defend their delusions with the same tenacity as Christians do theirs and pagans do theirs - what I object to is the derogatory terms used.

[Outrider]

I expect atheists to defend their delusions with the same tenacity as Christians do theirs and pagans do theirs - what I object to is the derogatory terms used.

Which delusions are they?

O.

[Rhiannon]

I only object when atheists patronise me and assume I'd be happier if I thought like them.

[floo]

I know I have mentioned this on a number of occasions but will do so again. When my husband had his devastating brain haemorrhage in December 2006, a 'born again' friend of ours was very ill too. Many well meaning prayers were said for both of them. My husband recovered, albeit with half his brain trashed, our friend died. Now if my husband had died of course it would have been very sad, but as our children were adults leading independent lives we would have coped. However, in the case of our friend his death caused great distress and trauma to his family who were still young; one of whom was disabled. I raised this question on a forum as to why my husband had lived, and our friend died and got the stock answer from a fundie. The deity allowed my husband to live so he could get 'saved'! This is quite amusing because whilst my husband was in a coma he had some sort of experience, which convinced him beyond all doubt that no deity or afterlife existed!

[Owlswing]

I expect atheists to defend their delusions with the same tenacity as Christians do theirs and pagans do theirs - what I object to is the derogatory terms used.

Which delusions are they?

O.

That there are no deities! Of course, what else did you think of?!

[Owlswing]

I know I have mentioned this on a number of occasions but will do so again. When my husband had his devastating brain haemorrhage in December 2006, a 'born again' friend of ours was very ill too. Many well meaning prayers were said for both of them. My husband recovered, albeit with half his brain trashed, our friend died. Now if my husband had died of course it would have been very sad, but as our children were adults leading independent lives we would have coped. However, in the case of our friend his death caused great distress and trauma to his family who were still young; one of whom was disabled. I raised this question on a forum as to why my husband had lived, and our friend died and got the stock answer from a fundie. The deity allowed my husband to live so he could get 'saved'! This is quite amusing because whilst my husband was in a coma he had some sort of experience, which convinced him beyond all doubt that no deity or afterlife existed!

Convinced HIM! And I am extremely sorry that he did not have a complete recovery. Sometimes a partial recovery is worse, far worse, than either a complete recovery or a complete failure to recover.

Why his experience should be used, by anyone, in an attempt to convince others is beyond me.

My beliefs, my religion, is personal to me! I expect no-one other than myself to follow my beliefs as they are based upon MY experiences, and, unless someone else has exactly, in every minute detail, the same experiences they cannot possibly understand why I believe what I believe and, as far as I am concerned, that goes for all religious belief or, in the case of atheists, disbelief.

As both Rhi and I have said on many occasions on this Forum, what really pisses me off is when people who have not the vaguest idea of what I believe and why I believe it, or how I practice it, whose only knowledge of my beliefs is gained from others who have a vested interest in dissing what I believe to suit their own purposes of pushing their beliefs onto myself and others, of telling me that what I believe is sinful, wrong, fantasy or anything else negative, I find myself wondering who they are trying to convince of the rightness of what they are pushing, me or themselves.

In most cases I think that it is the latter.

[Outrider]

I expect atheists to defend their delusions with the same tenacity as Christians do theirs and pagans do theirs - what I object to is the derogatory terms used.

Which delusions are they?

O.

That there are no deities! Of course, what else did you think of?!

And your evidence that these are 'delusions' is....?

O.

[Owlswing]

I expect atheists to defend their delusions with the same tenacity as Christians do theirs and pagans do theirs - what I object to is the derogatory terms used.

Which delusions are they?

O.

That there are no deities! Of course, what else did you think of?!

And your evidence that these are 'delusions' is....?

O.

Of course there is no evidence that they are delusions anymore than there is any evidence to the contrary.

[floo]

I know I have mentioned this on a number of occasions but will do so again. When my husband had his devastating brain haemorrhage in December 2006, a 'born again' friend of ours was very ill too. Many well meaning prayers were said for both of them. My husband recovered, albeit with half his brain trashed, our friend died. Now if my husband had died of course it would have been very sad, but as our children were adults leading independent lives we would have coped. However, in the case of our friend his death caused great distress and trauma to his family who were still young; one of whom was disabled. I raised this question on a forum as to why my husband had lived, and our friend died and got the stock answer from a fundie. The deity allowed my husband to live so he could get 'saved'! This is quite amusing because whilst my husband was in a coma he had some sort of experience, which convinced him beyond all doubt that no deity or afterlife existed!

Convinced HIM! And I am extremely sorry that he did not have a complete recovery. Sometimes a partial recovery is worse, far worse, than either a complete recovery or a complete failure to recover.

Why his experience should be used, by anyone, in an attempt to convince others is beyond me.

My beliefs, my religion, is personal to me! I expect no-one other than myself to follow my beliefs as they are based upon MY experiences, and, unless someone else has exactly, in every minute detail, the same experiences they cannot possibly understand why I believe what I believe and, as far as I am concerned, that goes for all religious belief or, in the case of atheists, disbelief.

As both Rhi and I have said on many occasions on this Forum, what really pisses me off is when people who have not the vaguest idea of what I believe and why I believe it, whose only knowledge of my beliefs is gained from others who have a vested ineterst in dissing what I believe to suit thei own purposes of pushing their beliefs onto myself and others, of telling me that what |I believe is sinfulk, wrong, fantasy or anything else negative, I find myself wondering who they are trying to convince of the ritghtness of what they are poushing, me or themselves.

In most cases I think that it is the latter.

I don't believe that whatever experience my husband claimed to have had, has anymore credence than those claiming the deity/Jesus is communing with them.

As for his partial recovery, I sometimes think it would be kinder if he hadn't survived as he is unable to do anything of an academic nature now, which was always his greatest love. However, even with half a functioning brain he is still light years more intelligent than the family thicko, little me, which wouldn't be difficult!