The Deity of Christ in the Old Testament

[jeremyp]

I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!

It's not even an opinion, Floo, they pretty much admit as much in the gospels.

[trippymonkey]

Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ?

[jeremyp]

Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ?

About what?

Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.

[Nearly Sane]

Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ?

About what?

Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.

Surely they only have an interest in 'pretending' if they already believe it? I don't understand your statement.

[Hope]

Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.

In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get.  Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.

[Hope]

I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!

It's not even an opinion, Floo, they pretty much admit as much in the gospels.

jeremy, perhaps you can provide us with the answer to the qestion that Foll raised but has been unable/unwilling to answer.  Namely "And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah?"

[2Corrie]

Then who exactly are we supposed to 'believe' here ?

God, and His revelation to us.

[jeremyp]

Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.

In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get.

Well considering how you are stretching the truth beyond breaking point in your desperation to show that you are right, (you in the generic "you Christians" sense), I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.

Nah. In fact, given that the gospel writers clearly knew the OT (in Septuagint form at least), I think it is inevitable that the Jesus of the gospels would resemble the Messiah at some level, simply because that is the message they wanted to transmit. 

[jakswan]

Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.

In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get.  Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.

Why?

[Hope]

Why?

See NS's post #59, for one thing.  Secondly, there is sufficient evidence within the Old Testament to show that, whatever the Jews understood, their Scriptures were pointing to the messiahship of Jesus.  You need somehow to prove that the various passages that point towards Jesus the Christ don't point to it.

[2Corrie]

Rule of thumb: the Christians have an interest in pretending that Jesus was the Messiah. They have the least trustworthy opinions in this instance.

In fact that is probably about as far from the truth that one can get.

Well considering how you are stretching the truth beyond breaking point in your desperation to show that you are right, (you in the generic "you Christians" sense), I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Folk like you have a far greater need for Jesus to be shown not to be the Messiah than Christians have for the opposite.

Nah. In fact, given that the gospel writers clearly knew the OT (in Septuagint form at least), I think it is inevitable that the Jesus of the gospels would resemble the Messiah at some level, simply because that is the message they wanted to transmit.

They even managed to make sure he was born and died at the right time, amazing.

[Hope]

Nah. In fact, given that the gospel writers clearly knew the OT (in Septuagint form at least), I think it is inevitable that the Jesus of the gospels would resemble the Messiah at some level, simply because that is the message they wanted to transmit.

So, answer the question that I've already asked Floo, and recently asked of you: "And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah?"

Until we know what you think the profile of 'messiah' was that existed at the time, we will have wait to give any response to your points.

[trippymonkey]

Sorry but just how little do Christians 'need', the word really IS need as well, to believe in Jesus as any kind of Messiah?

[floo]

I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!

And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?

Bumped for Floo's benefit.

The profile was no doubt whatever they wanted it to be, just like the deity and Jesus is whatever it suits a believer to believe about them!

[jeremyp]

I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!

And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?

Bumped for Floo's benefit.

The profile was no doubt whatever they wanted it to be, just like the deity and Jesus is whatever it suits a believer to believe about them!

The Messiah in Judaism is a great political leader still to come.

Well actually, it is not. "Messiah" means "anointed one" — literally anointed — which is basically a King. David and Solomon were both messiahs. There have been many messiahs in Jewish history.

There is obviously a special messiah still to come, prophesied in the Jewish Bible. Some of the predictions are quite specific. For example the messiah will rebuild the temple. Well that happened in the 6th century BCE. Of course, as it has since been demolished again, I guess there is still an opportunity for a Messiah, although the Muslims might have some objections. Clearly Jesus failed here. In fact, at the time he lived there was no need to rebuild the Temple as there already was one.

It is also prophesied that the Messiah will restore Israel and initiate a World government in Jerusalem. Well, that is not going to happen and Jesus failed to come close to it too.

Oh, yes and the Messiah is of the line of David, which Jesus may have been as long as you discount the virgin birth.

[jakswan]

I don't know what that method is, please expand.

It's what the historical method is often based on.

No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.

[floo]

I don't know what that method is, please expand.

It's what the historical method is often based on.

No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.

I agree, especially as they were written down years later and therefore it would be impossible to remember word for word what he is supposed to have said. Besides which, the eye witnesses could well have put their spin on the 'quotes'!

[jakswan]

I don't know what that method is, please expand.

It's what the historical method is often based on.

No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.

I agree, especially as they were written down years later and therefore it would be impossible to remember word for word what he is supposed to have said. Besides which, the eye witnesses could well have put their spin on the 'quotes'!

It seems that Hope-along is cherry picking his methods.

[Sassy]

MMM Can't see anything there about Jesus turning 'His' people into Christians either.

Yes, He was rejected by the far greater majority of Jews as not fulfilling ALL the criteria for The Messiah who was to deliver them from the Romans ??!?!!?

Nick

One of the criteria for being "the Messiah" was that he ushered in a period of world peace.

No one has managed that one yet, although many have claimed to be.

Xxxxxxxxx

The Messiah was supposed to

Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple

Ezekiel 37:26-28King James Version (KJV)

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



The temple are the people of God who have accepted Christ and have been baptised with the Holy Spirit.

Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Kingdom of God is within you. The body of believe is the Temple now where God dwells..






Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel

Isaiah 43:5-6King James Version (KJV)

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Didn't this already happen.







Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."

Isaiah 2:4King James Version (KJV)

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


I guess the many countries where Christ has been accepted this has happened.
But no one is lost unless they do not accept Christ.

It says among the nations.





Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One"

Zechariah 14:9King James Version (KJV)

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

As you can see Rose it has been altered in your version.


If a candidate fails one he fails them all.

[BashfulAnthony]

I don't know what that method is, please expand.

It's what the historical method is often based on.

No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.

Interested to have you substantiate that comment with some names.

[ad_orientem]

I am of the opinion the gospel writers wrote up the life of Jesus to make him appear to fit the profile of the expected Jewish messiah! The fact that most Jews didn't recognise him as such speaks volumes!

And, in your opinion, what was the profile of this expected messiah, Floo?

Bumped for Floo's benefit.

The profile was no doubt whatever they wanted it to be, just like the deity and Jesus is whatever it suits a believer to believe about them!

The Messiah in Judaism is a great political leader still to come.

Well actually, it is not. "Messiah" means "anointed one" — literally anointed — which is basically a King. David and Solomon were both messiahs. There have been many messiahs in Jewish history.

There is obviously a special messiah still to come, prophesied in the Jewish Bible. Some of the predictions are quite specific. For example the messiah will rebuild the temple. Well that happened in the 6th century BCE. Of course, as it has since been demolished again, I guess there is still an opportunity for a Messiah, although the Muslims might have some objections. Clearly Jesus failed here. In fact, at the time he lived there was no need to rebuild the Temple as there already was one.

It is also prophesied that the Messiah will restore Israel and initiate a World government in Jerusalem. Well, that is not going to happen and Jesus failed to come close to it too.

Oh, yes and the Messiah is of the line of David, which Jesus may have been as long as you discount the virgin birth.

But as our Lord says, the  Jews completely misunderstood the law and the prophets.

[jakswan]

I don't know what that method is, please expand.

It's what the historical method is often based on.

No most historians would not consider the sayings of Jesus in Gospel of John as historically accurate.

Interested to have you substantiate that comment with some names.

Bart Ehrman, I've heard him state this a few times at debates and as I recall his opponent has never challenged this view.

It looks like Hope has accepted what I claimed so maybe take his word for it, he lies a lot but he is a Christian.