Astrology

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is a video about Michael Shermer...the skeptic... and his analysis of an astrologer. Watch it fully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbwrCfj7VMg

Cheers.

Sriram

[BeRational]

Michael Shermer

[Sriram]

Michael Shermer

Yes...that's right. Sorry. Corrected!

[jakswan]

https://marcalandimartino.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/the-curious-case-of-shermer-vs-armstrong/

LOL.

[jeremyp]

I can't watch the clip because I'm on the train, but if anybody is claiming that astrology is anything other than complete bollocks then they are (as a person I can unfortunately overhear in the buffet car puts it) talking complete shit.

Astrology is utter bollocks. End of story.

[Sriram]

I think Shermer really couldn't find any thing to fault. Sadly, instead of concluding it positively he just ended it abruptly.

[jeremyp]

I think Shermer really couldn't find any thing to fault. Sadly, instead of concluding it positively he just ended it abruptly.

You need to read Jackwan's link. Shermer was not in control.

[Sriram]

I think Shermer really couldn't find any thing to fault. Sadly, instead of concluding it positively he just ended it abruptly.

You need to read Jackwan's link. Shermer was not in control.

I have read the link. He talks about some cameramen not having the time or some such. Rubbish!  And he does not question the percentage of hits vs misses shown in the video in any case.

And they keep saying there is no scientific study!!  The one by Shermer is a scientific study, for heavens sake!! They can just continue on the same lines. 

A skeptic wanting to show things in the right light wouldn't allow such matters as cameramen wanting to go home.... to get the better of him. He could have easily made another video later and concluded properly without releasing the first one. 

[SqueakyVoice]

And here is Derren Brown producing an reading with an accuracy rating of 82%.

https://youtu.be/2bCjzLij54k

So that makes astrology 5% less 'accurate' than just giving everyone the same piece of paper.

[Dajjal]

Astrology is utter bollocks. End of story.

It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon. This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.

[jeremyp]

It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon.

Was it really? Got any evidence of that?

This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.

Does this influence obey the inverse square law?

If so, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by the Earth.

If not, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by all the other bodies in the Universe.

[Dajjal]

It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon.

Was it really? Got any evidence of that?

This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.

Does this influence obey the inverse square law?

If so, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by the Earth.

If not, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by all the other bodies in the Universe.

I think I read it in an old psychology book years ago, but I cannot quote the reference as I do not remember.
But here is a BBC article that suggests the full moon has an effect on people and animals.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131029-does-a-full-moon-make-people-mad

[jeremyp]

I think I read it in an old psychology book years ago, but I cannot quote the reference as I do not remember.
But here is a BBC article that suggests the full moon has an effect on people and animals.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131029-does-a-full-moon-make-people-mad

Read it again. It actually says no effect can be found.

[Outrider]

Astrology is utter bollocks. End of story.

It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon. This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.

It was also well known that women suffered mental problems because they had uteruses. This was also plain wrong, but lots of people knew it.

Several meta-analyses of the various studies on the so-called 'Lunar Effect' have concluded that it's a myth.

Even if it weren't, the moon is orders of magnitude closer to the Earth than the stars that make up the Western astrological 'houses', let alone those in the (conflicting) Chinese arrangement, so you couldn't necessarily deduce an astrological effect from the lunar.

O.

[Harrowby Hall]

It was well known in mental hospitals before the days of medication, that patients would become more disturbed during a full moon.

Was it really? Got any evidence of that?

This is evidence that another planetary body can have a subtle influence upon us. If the moon can affect us why not other planets.

Does this influence obey the inverse square law?

If so, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by the Earth.

If not, the influences of all the planets would be totally drowned out by all the other bodies in the Universe.

I think I read it in an old psychology book years ago, but I cannot quote the reference as I do not remember.
But here is a BBC article that suggests the full moon has an effect on people and animals.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131029-does-a-full-moon-make-people-mad

The BBC article is gloriously inconclusive. It states that a meta analysis of published results found no effect but suggests that, for example, police reports may be due to confirmation bias - it's the full moon so we'll but more policemen on duty and the larger number of policemen make more arrests. Of course it's the full moon that does this, not the increased police activity.

I must look up the animal biting study - but a suggestion here is that it not animals themselves which are affected but parasites whose life cycle is determined by the lunar cycle.

In many years of reading psychology textbooks, journals and conference reports, I cannot recall reading anything suggesting that there is evidence to support human behaviour being affected by lunar cycles. I suspect that it was the empirical research of Victorians like Bram Stoker who helped to create the concept of the "lunatic".

You may find the following abstract from a short paper in a respected psychology journal of value:

Perceptual and Motor Skills, 1970, 30, 827-830.

THE MOON AND MENTAL ILLNESS: A FAILURE TO CONFIRM THE TRANSYLVANIA EFFECT
J. L. SHAPIRO, D.L. STREINER, A. L. GRAY, NANCY L. WILLIAMS, AND CONNIE SOBLE
Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital, Hamilton, Ontario

Summary.-The Transylvania effect-the notion that certain patient behavior coincides with moon phases-was carefully tested during a 3-month summer period in 1969. Three non-reactive measures were employed and no significant results were found on any of them. It was concluded that a meaningful correlation between the moon phase and acting out behavior of mental patients did not exist and, therefore, did not explain many unresolved problems
in the area.

[Sriram]

Skepticism has become a habit. Many people can't seem to help it any more. They just enjoy being skeptical.

Many things that were earlier considered as wacko or related to the supernatural or  superstition or blind belief... are now being accepted and even promoted. Yoga and meditations come to mind immediately. The merits of  many traditional systems such as Ayurveda and Acupuncture are now being realized.

Maybe astrology will also join the ranks of the above systems in course of time.

The shoe is on the other foot.  The same 'upstream' battle that science had to wage against religions is now being waged by many ancient systems of knowledge against the skeptics. It'll all even out eventually IMO.

[Sriram]

Rose,

I don't see the point you're trying to make.

Like many other discoveries and forms of knowledge we have acquired over the centuries such as medicine, genetics, psychology, geology, evolution, engineering and so on...which help us in many ways but  do not contradict faith....similarly there are other fields of knowledge such as astrology, knowledge of the biofield and so on which though ancient, are now being rediscovered and understood in modern parlance.   

What is the problem with that? 

[jakswan]

Rose,

I don't see the point you're trying to make.

Like many other discoveries and forms of knowledge we have acquired over the centuries such as medicine, genetics, psychology, geology, evolution, engineering and so on...which help us in many ways but  do not contradict faith....similarly there are other fields of knowledge such as astrology, knowledge of the biofield and so on which though ancient, are now being rediscovered and understood in modern parlance.   

What is the problem with that?

Don't forget to add fairies and leprechauns to your list.

[Outrider]

Skepticism has become a habit. Many people can't seem to help it any more. They just enjoy being skeptical.

No, skepticism is a validated method - don't accept anything until it's been supported by sufficient evidence.

Many things that were earlier considered as wacko or related to the supernatural or  superstition or blind belief... are now being accepted and even promoted.

Only with significant qualifications or by Deepak Chopra-style whack-jobs.

Yoga and meditations come to mind immediately.

Yoga is a reasonably good, low-impact exercise form, but there's nothing to back any further claims than that. Meditation, mindfulness, just forms of 'take a moment to calm yourself' - neither rocket-science nor mysticism.

Maybe astrology will also join the ranks of the above systems in course of time.

Or, on the other hand, maybe the complete lack of any reliable evidence for the past few thousand years will be a clue that there's nothing in it.

The shoe is on the other foot.  The same 'upstream' battle that science had to wage against religions is now being waged by many ancient systems of knowledge against the skeptics. It'll all even out eventually IMO.

We can but hope.

O.

[Harrowby Hall]

Skepticism has become a habit. Many people can't seem to help it any more. They just enjoy being skeptical.

And the same can be said about its polar opposite condition: credulity. Some people enjoy being credulous.

The merits of  many traditional systems such as Ayurveda and Acupuncture are now being realized.

These "merits" are, however, greatly outweighed by their failures.

As far as acupuncture is concerned, Cochrane reviews (the formal results of evidence-based medical trials) find little support for the claims of its proponents and suggest that positive results are due to the placebo effect.

And as for ayurveda, there is still a need for patients to believe that many of its treatments will be successful, but - given the long history of its "guess and test" methodology - how many millions of corpses, over the ages, bear witness to its failures? There is, today, concern over substances like mercury sometimes found in its potions.

Maybe astrology will also join the ranks of the above systems in course of time.

And what explanation can be given to the effect of a star for which the only evidence that it actually exists is light which left it thousands of years ago?

The shoe is on the other foot.  The same 'upstream' battle that science had to wage against religions is now being waged by many ancient systems of knowledge against the skeptics. It'll all even out eventually IMO.

You wish.

[Rhiannon]

O, just a point about mindfulness and meditation - they aren't about 'taking a moment to calm yourself'. Nor are they woo of course. The point with mindfulness and meditation is to meet things as they are, not distract yourself from them or find ways to ignore them. Wiggs and Shaker are both far more seasoned meditators than I but believe me, there's more to it than just listening to some nice music and taking a few deep breaths.

Will you do me a favour? Buy or borrow Teach Us To Sit Still by the novelist Tim Parks.

[floo]

I think astrology is garbage.

[Rhiannon]

Which is why we shouldn't be discussing it alongside stuff that isn't.

[floo]

Which is why we shouldn't be discussing it alongside stuff that isn't.

Like what?

[Outrider]

O, just a point about mindfulness and meditation - they aren't about 'taking a moment to calm yourself'. Nor are they woo of course. The point with mindfulness and meditation is to meet things as they are, not distract yourself from them or find ways to ignore them. Wiggs and Shaker are both far more seasoned meditators than I but believe me, there's more to it than just listening to some nice music and taking a few deep breaths.

Will you do me a favour? Buy or borrow Teach Us To Sit Still by the novelist Tim Parks.

Actually, mindfulness and meditation really is just about taking that moment out. Once you've taken that moment, shed the seemingly important demands and pressures, that's when you can focus on what's actually important. I'm not meaning to denigrate its usefulness or utility, I was just attempting to strip away the woo from it.

I'll add Parks to the seemingly endless list

O.