Deeds not words

[ippy]

They're great, Floo, especially the annual one in Edinburgh!!

Tattoos, the on the flesh kind, = disfigurement.

ippy

[Shaker]

Can't be disfigured by what you choose, ipples, only by what you don't.

[Dicky Underpants]

Death THEN judgment Len........I don't get to do the judging and neither do you. That's a blow for our judgmental attitudes for openers .......and yours are always on display around here. You don't get to say who's bad and who's good.

In which case, there's little point being concerned about it. The gospels and other scriptures are unclear in any case, and Christians don't get any quarter either. Christ is reported to have said "Not everyone saying unto me 'Lord, Lord.....etc" ending with "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

According to Aquinas (apart from his egregious comments on the blessed contemplating the damned, to which Shaker has alluded):

It cannot be said that those who perform works of mercy during life on earth will necessarily escape the punishments of hell. Even great sinners may sometimes do remarkable deeds of mercy. During earthly life, such deeds may be the means of winning (congruously) contrition for the one who performs them, but they are no guarantee that contrition will be accepted, or that it will endure to the end of life, and so enable the performer of the good deeds to escape hell.

If you think you know what the correct formula for 'salvation' is, no doubt you'll keep peddling it on here (but preferably in the clearest English of which you're capable). But those of us who've had a gutful of such fear and guilt-related crap are likely to suggest that you simply get on with living your life doing as little harm to your fellow creatures as possible, since you know no more about such eschatological and supernatural matters than any of us. Your take on Christianity is just one among many.

 

[Hope]

Any non-religious person doing a good deed trumps the religious believer every time, we're not looking for brownie points, we're a lot nearer to pure altruism than any religioso.

Please note the, "a lot nearer".

As I said before, not your edited version Vlad. (Above).

ippy

The problem with this claim is that there are many people, religious and not who do good deeds to impress their peers and colleagues; there are those - again of both types - who don't do anything, and perhaps most importantly, Christians, (and I can't speak for people of other faiths) aren't promised brownie points anyway - other than possibly (as mentioned above) from their peers and colleagues.

You and others have mentioned this idea before, suggesting that it is such people who are looking to earn such points.

[Hope]

Tattoos, the on the flesh kind, = disfigurement.

ippy

I 'm not enamoured by tattoos, but our eldest daughter has an absolutely beautiful one on her back at belt level, which is an inticate design combining the 4 national flowers of her mother's nation (Australia), her father's nation (England), her own 'childhood nation' (Nepal) and her own birth nation (Wales).  The last thing it is is a disfigurement.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Any non-religious person doing a good deed trumps the religious believer every time, we're not looking for brownie points, we're a lot nearer to pure altruism than any religioso.

Please note the, "a lot nearer".

As I said before, not your edited version Vlad. (Above).

ippy

You completely misunderstand Chriistianity Ippy. There are no brownie points to be won.....There is no scale of good deeds hence the need for Jesus and his death.

Secondly we don't know what your motivation is for Good deeds since it cannot be measured only observed. 2 people doing the same deed are observed doing the same thing i.e. altruism. In other words if it is possible for a theist to do something for brownie points it is possible for an atheist to be doing something to look good in the sight of his fellow atheist.

Thirdly, if you do good for the sake of good you are a moral realist since you believe in an absolute good. You are I would say a de facto theist.

Fourthly, does altruism really equal ''doing good''.

There, Ippy you haven't demonstrated you are any nearer to anything.

[Leonard James]

In which case, there's little point being concerned about it. The gospels and other scriptures are unclear in any case, and Christians don't get any quarter either. Christ is reported to have said "Not everyone saying unto me 'Lord, Lord.....etc" ending with "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

According to Aquinas (apart from his egregious comments on the blessed contemplating the damned, to which Shaker has alluded):
If you think you know what the correct formula for 'salvation' is, no doubt you'll keep peddling it on here (but preferably in the clearest English of which you're capable). But those of us who've had a gutful of such fear and guilt-related crap are likely to suggest that you simply get on with living your life doing as little harm to your fellow creatures as possible, since you know no more about such eschatological and supernatural matters than any of us. Your take on Christianity is just one among many.

As far as I can see, Dicky, it's all a whole lot of bullshit dreamed up by sanctimonious twerps with too much spare time on their hands.

If I were younger and had more energy I would be doing something far more interesting than wittering on about it here.

[ippy]

Quote from: ippy on Today at 04:17:56 PM


Any non-religious person doing a good deed trumps the religious believer every time, we're not looking for brownie points, we're a lot nearer to pure altruism than any religioso.

Please note the, "a lot nearer".

As I said before, not your edited version Vlad. (Above).

ippy
You completely misunderstand Chriistianity Ippy. There are no brownie points to be won.....There is no scale of good deeds hence the need for Jesus and his death.

Secondly we don't know what your motivation is for Good deeds since it cannot be measured only observed. 2 people doing the same deed are observed doing the same thing i.e. altruism. In other words if it is possible for a theist to do something for brownie points it is possible for an atheist to be doing something to look good in the sight of his fellow atheist.

Thirdly, if you do good for the sake of good you are a moral realist since you believe in an absolute good. You are I would say a de facto theist.

Fourthly, does altruism really equal ''doing good''.

There, Ippy you haven't demonstrated you are any nearer to anything.

All of the underlined bits answered your question before you asked thats why I expressly said, we're a lot nearer to pure altruism than any religioso, got it this time.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Quote from: ippy on Today at 04:17:56 PM


Any non-religious person doing a good deed trumps the religious believer every time, we're not looking for brownie points, we're a lot nearer to pure altruism than any religioso.

Please note the, "a lot nearer".

As I said before, not your edited version Vlad. (Above).

ippy
You completely misunderstand Chriistianity Ippy. There are no brownie points to be won.....There is no scale of good deeds hence the need for Jesus and his death.

Secondly we don't know what your motivation is for Good deeds since it cannot be measured only observed. 2 people doing the same deed are observed doing the same thing i.e. altruism. In other words if it is possible for a theist to do something for brownie points it is possible for an atheist to be doing something to look good in the sight of his fellow atheist.

Thirdly, if you do good for the sake of good you are a moral realist since you believe in an absolute good. You are I would say a de facto theist.

Fourthly, does altruism really equal ''doing good''.

There, Ippy you haven't demonstrated you are any nearer to anything.

All of the underlined bits answered your question before you asked thats why I expressly said, we're a lot nearer to pure altruism than any religioso, got it this time.

ippy

Is there something to get?
You asserted a Christian does good to get brownie points. A Christian knows he cannot earn God's approval so you were hopelessly misinformed there.

Secondly you asserted that an atheist does good out of pure altruism. There is no way of demonstrating that and it is equally feasible that he is doing it to impress.

There is therefore no possible evidence of anybodies altruism being purer.

And lastly you assert that altruism is the same as doing good. Please demonstrate.

[Hope]

All of the underlined bits answered your question before you asked thats why I expressly said, we're a lot nearer to pure altruism than any religioso, got it this time.

Good to see you wriggling to get your originally erroneous claims to appear viable. 

[ippy]

Good to see you wriggling to get your originally erroneous claims to appear viable.

No not really Hope that reference, nearer to pure altruism, was there in the first post, I underlined it later to point out to vlad, that he had missed this carefully placed part of that original post.

Obviously he missed it, unlike others that are more into being selective; now who would be one of those selective exponent others be now?

Now go back to the post of mine where I specifically pointed out, nearer to pure altruism, you can make your apology as soon as you like, because you've got it well and truly wrong, I'll look forward to this.

ippy

P S Please note post number 65 on this thread.

[Hope]

No not really Hope that reference, nearer to pure altruism, was there in the first post, I underlined it later to point out to vlad, that he had missed this carefully placed part of that original post.

And?  In case you find it hard to understand English, I'll reword what I wrote.

"Good to see you wriggling in order to make out that the erroneous claims that you made in your original post appear to be viable."

As for your underlining of bits of that original post in subsequent posts, those all appeared after Vlad had answered your originl post point by point.  Rather than him missing 'the carefully placed part of the original post', you have missed the whole point of his argument, which was that your original post has absolutely no evidential legs to stand on.

Now go back to the post of mine where I specifically pointed out, nearer to pure altruism, you can make your apology as soon as you like, because you've got it well and truly wrong, I'll look forward to this.

ippy

I'm quite happy to apologise that I disagree with your original post and apologise on my own behalf and perhaps even on Vlad's behalf for pointing out where you made several fundamental errors in that post.

[ippy]

And?  In case you find it hard to understand English, I'll reword what I wrote.

"Good to see you wriggling in order to make out that the erroneous claims that you made in your original post appear to be viable."

As for your underlining of bits of that original post in subsequent posts, those all appeared after Vlad had answered your originl post point by point.  Rather than him missing 'the carefully placed part of the original post', you have missed the whole point of his argument, which was that your original post has absolutely no evidential legs to stand on.
I'm quite happy to apologise that I disagree with your original post and apologise on my own behalf and perhaps even on Vlad's behalf for pointing out where you made several fundamental errors in that post.

Hi there Hope, please note the above, a clear space for you to write anything else you want to write as though it's me saying it, be my guest.

ippy   

[Hope]

Hi there Hope, please note the above, a clear space for you to write anything else you want to write as though it's me saying it, be my guest.

ippy

Thanks for the space you left but netiquette requires me to write any comments under your own.

So, here goes; The only times I 'write anything else you want to write as though it's me saying it' is when it is a quote from one of your posts.  That's how the quote function works, so that people can see what you (or any other poster) writes, and what another poster then writes in response to 'you' write.

[ippy]

Thanks for the space you left but netiquette requires me to write any comments under your own.

So, here goes; The only times I 'write anything else you want to write as though it's me saying it' is when it is a quote from one of your posts.  That's how the quote function works, so that people can see what you (or any other poster) writes, and what another poster then writes in response to 'you' write.

Interesting.

ippy

[Sassy]

There are some Christians who do a lot for others, but would probably do so even if they were non believers. However there are other Christians who think they have done their bit by running off at the mouth about their faith, but do nothing practical to help those in need! Deeds are much better than words, imo.

As a Christian what do you do to help others in need?

That is between God, the persons and I.

Most believers do not do things for acknowledgement. Believe it or not, we do it because we care thanks to the care laid on our hearts by God. Will you ever learn to reason before speak?

[Sassy]

Matthew 5.15

…14"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

It is very difficult to hide the changes knowing God and Christ in your life produce.
Good works are amongst them, but they are just the normal thing to do and only God deserves the praise and recognition for the results.

Praying is our way of acting on our faith. The results are all Gods as is the thanks and praise for the answering.

Love is the only way forward for us all. I have been touched by your concern these last few months (((Rose))) and your words of comfort and support have been gratefully received. Thank you.

[Sassy]

floo,
So you know a lot of Christians that don't do anything for others floo? Really, I doubt that any Christian has confessed that to you.
And being that you bash God here and praise and plead to him in prayer poems elsewhere on the internet, I don't care to read about your charity work because you are not credible.

Floo, knows no other way. She won't open up and let anyone in.
I daresay not even her family. But somewhere deep inside she must know God loves her...

[Sassy]

The sort of person you are is far more important than having any sort of faith. If you are decent, honest and try to help others, that is much more to be prized than anything else, imo.

Where on this board have you tried to help believers?
Does being decent and honest include insulting and tarring all believers with the same brush you created?

[ippy]

[quote author=Sassy link=topic=11030.msg577216#msg577216 date=1450097655]
That is between God, the persons and I.

Most believers do not do things for acknowledgement. Believe it or not, we do it because we care thanks to the care laid on our hearts by God. Will you ever learn to reason before speak?
[/quote]


3

ippy

[ippy]

It is very difficult to hide the changes knowing God and Christ in your life produce.
Good works are amongst them, but they are just the normal thing to do and only God deserves the praise and recognition for the results.

Praying is our way of acting on our faith. The results are all Gods as is the thanks and praise for the answering.

Love is the only way forward for us all. I have been touched by your concern these last few months (((Rose))) and your words of comfort and support have been gratefully received. Thank you.

6

ippy

[ippy]

Floo, knows no other way. She won't open up and let anyone in.
I daresay not even her family. But somewhere deep inside she must know God loves her...

4

ippy

[Outrider]

It is very difficult to hide the changes knowing God and Christ in your life produce.

Indeed. Just ask the Westboro Baptists, or the KKK...

Good works are amongst them, but they are just the normal thing to do and only God deserves the praise and recognition for the results.

Does that mean God deserves the opprobrium when they call for a prohibition on Muslims entering America? How do you explain the good works done by people who don't believe in God?

Praying is our way of acting on our faith. The results are all Gods as is the thanks and praise for the answering.

Do you get to complain about all the unanswered prayers, though? Why does God hate amputees?

Love is the only way forward for us all.

Absolutely.

O.

[floo]

Floo, knows no other way. She won't open up and let anyone in.
I daresay not even her family. But somewhere deep inside she must know God loves her...

Sass you don't half talk some garbage!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Indeed. Just ask the Westboro Baptists,

O.

Oh yes..........There are millions of those available for consultation.........