Deeds not words

[Outrider]

Oh yes..........There are millions of those available for consultation.........

So 'True' Christianity isn't decided by the correct interpretation of scripture but by popular vote?

Does that mean, given that the majority of the population of the planet reject Christianity, that 'True' Christianity is to accept that Jesus is a myth?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So 'True' Christianity isn't decided by the correct interpretation of scripture but by
By popular vote
O.

Don't be silly......it is decided by anti theists on the basis of worst caricature.

[Outrider]

Don't be silly......it is decided by anti theists on the basis of worst caricature.

Right... and the list of anti-theists is generated by the queen of the unicorns?

O.

[Dicky Underpants]

Oh yes..........There are millions of those available for consultation.........

Well, I suppose Sassy's latter-day Arianism (consisting of a church, in this case, with one member) must be an overwhelming argument for authenticity. However, as I'm sure you really know, neither obsessive personal assertion, nor the o so familiar argumentum ad populum which you've implied here, count for anything very much.

[Hope]

...nor the o so familiar argumentum ad populum which you've implied here, count for anything very much.

An argument that so often gets used to express the idea that the Christian faith has passed its sell-by date 

[Outrider]

An argument that so often gets used to express the idea that the Christian faith has passed its sell-by date

No, it's used to point out that in a representative democracy, there shouldn't be special treatment for an increasingly small segment of the populace. It isn't used to support the fact that Christianity still hasn't made the case for Christianity.

On the other side, it's regularly trotted out to try to justify belief, because whilst millions of Muslims can be wrong, millions of Christians can't because of totally non-circular reasoning and Jesusness...

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, it's used to point out that in a representative democracy, there shouldn't be special treatment for an increasingly small segment of the populace. It isn't used to support the fact that Christianity still hasn't made the case for Christianity.

On the other side, it's regularly trotted out to try to justify belief, because whilst millions of Muslims can be wrong, millions of Christians can't because of totally non-circular reasoning and Jesusness...

O.

No it,s used to try and establish a sell by date along with Bronze Age goat herding etc.

[Hope]

No, it's used to point out that in a representative democracy, there shouldn't be special treatment for an increasingly small segment of the populace. It isn't used to support the fact that Christianity still hasn't made the case for Christianity.

On the other side, it's regularly trotted out to try to justify belief, because whilst millions of Muslims can be wrong, millions of Christians can't because of totally non-circular reasoning and Jesusness...

O.

Yet we are constantly told that 'an increasingly small segment of the populace' is necessarily wrong because of the increasing number of people with a different outlook on life, an outlook that denies or ignores the existence of deity.  That's the point about the argumentum ad populum argument - it can be used both ways.

[ippy]

Yet we are constantly told that 'an increasingly small segment of the populace' is necessarily wrong because of the increasing number of people with a different outlook on life, an outlook that denies or ignores the existence of deity.  That's the point about the argumentum ad populum argument - it can be used both ways.

No, an increasingly small segment of the populace' is necessarily wrong because of the increasing number of people with a different outlook on life, I can't disagree with that.

What is in fact happening is the over representation of the various religious beliefs is now disproportionate, I know, it's been like that for years; I'll settle for a level playing field, where no one group is excluded and no one group has any kind of privilege either.

ippy   

[Hope]

No, an increasingly small segment of the populace' is necessarily wrong because of the increasing number of people with a different outlook on life, I can't disagree with that.

Sorry, your reliance on the argumentum ad populum is as invalid as you and others have suggested that the religious reliance on it is. 

What is in fact happening is the over representation of the various religious beliefs is now disproportionate, I know, it's been like that for years; I'll settle for a level playing field, where no one group is excluded and no one group has any kind of privilege either.

ippy

Whilst I am quite happy to agree with what you say here - after all, I've argued for the same myself since long before this boartd came into existence, I'm not quite sure how this argument fits with your earlier claim that " ... an 'increasingly small segment of the populace' is necessarily wrong because of the increasing number of people with a different outlook on life ... "

[Outrider]

Yet we are constantly told that 'an increasingly small segment of the populace' is necessarily wrong because of the increasing number of people with a different outlook on life, an outlook that denies or ignores the existence of deity.

I'm not sure you are told that's WHY you're wrong. Some people cite that as evidence (wrongly) THAT you're wrong.

[quote[That's the point about the argumentum ad populum argument - it can be used both ways.[/quote]

No, the point about the argumentum ad populum is that it can't be used at all - you aren't 'right' because there are many of you.

O.
[/quote]

[floo]

BUMP

What practical things have our more vociferous Christians done to help make the world a better place?

[Hope]

BUMP

What practical things have our more vociferous Christians done to help make the world a better place?

I have worked to improve the lives of the poor in our part of the UK by working for a homelessness charity that our church started 25-odd years (and which is now independent); helped at a jobclub that is run by Christians Against Poverty (CAP) held at our church.  Taught young people to tolerate others of different skin colour, nationality, gender,age, etc., etc. as part of my job as a teacher and as a youth club leader in clubs run by the church I attend (and other other organisations)

Furthermore, I have lived and worked abroad, where I have worked with student nurses and teachers to improve their ability to provide quality services.  In addition, I have - along with my wife - helped a couple of local communities where we lived at different stages in our time in Nepal to deal with issues that faced them - drug abuse being amongst the more serious.  At no point did we impose ourselves on the communities; rather we responded to requests from community leaders for help and advice - which only came about once they had begun to trust us as 'bideshis' (foreigners/outsiders)

[Rhiannon]

It's nobody else's business what anyone here does, believer and non-believer alike.

[Shaker]

It's nobody else's business what anyone here does, believer and non-believer alike.

Even Jesus thought that one's good works and charitable activities ought to be a private affair lest it look like vainglorious boasting, IIRC.

Matthew 6:2-3. It pays to know your Bible at times

[Sassy]

Indeed. Just ask the Westboro Baptists, or the KKK...

Does that mean God deserves the opprobrium when they call for a prohibition on Muslims entering America? How do you explain the good works done by people who don't believe in God?

Do you get to complain about all the unanswered prayers, though? Why does God hate amputees?

Absolutely.

O.

Not sure what KKK has to do with the personal changes of the individual.
What I have spoken about cannot be seen to refer to the KKK.

[Owlswing]

I have worked to improve the lives of the poor in our part of the UK by working for a homelessness charity that our church started 25-odd years (and which is now independent); helped at a jobclub that is run by Christians Against Poverty (CAP) held at our church.  Taught young people to tolerate others of different skin colour, nationality, gender,age, etc., etc. as part of my job as a teacher and as a youth club leader in clubs run by the church I attend (and other other organisations)

Furthermore, I have lived and worked abroad, where I have worked with student nurses and teachers to improve their ability to provide quality services.  In addition, I have - along with my wife - helped a couple of local communities where we lived at different stages in our time in Nepal to deal with issues that faced them - drug abuse being amongst the more serious.  At no point did we impose ourselves on the communities; rather we responded to requests from community leaders for help and advice - which only came about once they had begun to trust us as 'bideshis' (foreigners/outsiders)

Your vainglorious boasting does you no credit whatsoever!

[floo]

I have worked to improve the lives of the poor in our part of the UK by working for a homelessness charity that our church started 25-odd years (and which is now independent); helped at a jobclub that is run by Christians Against Poverty (CAP) held at our church.  Taught young people to tolerate others of different skin colour, nationality, gender,age, etc., etc. as part of my job as a teacher and as a youth club leader in clubs run by the church I attend (and other other organisations)

Furthermore, I have lived and worked abroad, where I have worked with student nurses and teachers to improve their ability to provide quality services.  In addition, I have - along with my wife - helped a couple of local communities where we lived at different stages in our time in Nepal to deal with issues that faced them - drug abuse being amongst the more serious.  At no point did we impose ourselves on the communities; rather we responded to requests from community leaders for help and advice - which only came about once they had begun to trust us as 'bideshis' (foreigners/outsiders)

Good for you.

[ippy]

Why bother with 'my' god?  Because I believe that belief/faith/trust in the creator of all things enables me to be more in tune with the needs, concerns, fears (and happiness) of my fellow humans than not having that belief/.../... .

Admire the 'I believe' prefix to your words Hope, but you can do good in all sorts of ways without having to attribute, any magical, mythical, superstition based beliefs to your acts or demeanour.

Apart from the odd murder from time to time that I just can't resist, I always try to act in general in ethical and moral ways and I think, although I've not dedicated my life to saving the world I've done plenty of small deeds that I hope help other people, no more than the average man and I've often said to others where I think I've helped is, I don't want anything in return just pass it along, it's this type of thing that can make the world a better place; any of these deeds of mine were done without any redress to a bronze age book written by ignorant peasants.

ippy     

[floo]

It's nobody else's business what anyone here does, believer and non-believer alike.

Oh but it is, as some run off at the mouth about how wonderful their faith is. It is only worth having if it is of practical use to those around them, imo.

[Hope]

Admire the 'I believe' prefix to your words Hope, but you can do good in all sorts of ways without having to attribute, any magical, mythical, superstition based beliefs to your acts or demeanour.

I don't disagree, ippy, which is why I don't attribute anything to magical, mythical or superstition beliefs.

[Brownie]

BUMP

What practical things have our more vociferous Christians done to help make the world a better place?

I read all the posts on this thread, floo!  Obviously some of them I just scanned but I thought it was a good idea to read back.

With all my heart, I sincerely hope you don't consider me to be a ''vociferous Christian''.  At the same time I don't believe the world is any better for me being in it or because of anything I have done.  Certainly I have tried to love my neighbour and there have been periods of time when I've been active on behalf of some issues -  it wouldn't be right to talk about that in any detail because not letting my right hand know what my left is doing is, for me, the best way.  In recent times I think I've been a bit pointless, frankly!

Plenty of people of other faiths and of no faith do good in the world and put me to shame. 

Edit:  Floo, I have found another forum!  Might suit you (I hasten to add, not to the exclusion of this forum), scroll down a bit and you will find recent posts.  Actually, the link might take you to a particular post but there are plenty of others.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/im-not-sure-im-a-christian-anymore.7936729/

[Owlswing]

I don't disagree, ippy, which is why I don't attribute anything to magical, mythical or superstition beliefs.

YOU DON'T WHAT!!!!!

You attribute everything, absolutely everything, to magical, mythical or superstition beliefs! Beliefs in your GOD!

[Sassy]

Your vainglorious boasting does you no credit whatsoever!

Well maybe... can you say you have done anything like that to boast about?
Would you really do all that traveling and giving all those years of your life just to have something to boast about.
I think not....

It is a clear sign that Hope cares about others and is committed enough to do something about matters which weigh on his heart when it comes to the suffering of others.
All you can do is attack him for doing the good WHICH you know you should of done but could not be bothered.

He did not get any glory and he didn't do it for the praise of men.

King James Bible
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Had you known anything about Christ, Christianity and the Almighty God the Father you would know the works we do are ordained for us to do. It is not our works but our Fathers in heaven. 

So tell me did you know what the NT taught? Did you make your claim knowing you falsely accused Hope or make such a claim because of your ignorance?
Should you be discussing Christian matters when you show no hindsight or forethought on the matters you discuss?
No matter how often you talk with Christians you appear never to learn anything or show you have actually reflected on anything said in conversations.

So in future you would be wise to order your remarks in accordance with Christian belief/understanding or not at all.

[floo]

Well maybe... can you say you have done anything like that to boast about?
Would you really do all that traveling and giving all those years of your life just to have something to boast about.
I think not....

It is a clear sign that Hope cares about others and is committed enough to do something about matters which weigh on his heart when it comes to the suffering of others.
All you can do is attack him for doing the good WHICH you know you should of done but could not be bothered.

He did not get any glory and he didn't do it for the praise of men.

King James Bible
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Had you known anything about Christ, Christianity and the Almighty God the Father you would know the works we do are ordained for us to do. It is not our works but our Fathers in heaven. 

So tell me did you know what the NT taught? Did you make your claim knowing you falsely accused Hope or make such a claim because of your ignorance?
Should you be discussing Christian matters when you show no hindsight or forethought on the matters you discuss?
No matter how often you talk with Christians you appear never to learn anything or show you have actually reflected on anything said in conversations.

So in future you would be wise to order your remarks in accordance with Christian belief/understanding or not at all.

Oh Sass your comments are so hilarious, if only you could see yourself as others see you then you might not make such silly statements.