Deeds not words

[Owlswing]

Yes indeed, no doubt by people like Dr Georgia Purdom who sometimes writes for "Answers In Genesis"

If anyone has the intestinal fortitude, they can get her take on science right here....

www.scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/16/shermer-at-the-creation-museum/

Actually it was posted by Sassy earlier in this thread I think.

[Brownie]

Sassy's post: #208 on: Today at 08:47:47 AM »
I didn't want to quote it in full.
Sass I found that post quite disturbing and I wonder who the 'other foreigners' are that have come to our country, and who are worth mentioning.
Frankly, the post seemed reactionary in the extreme and somewhat racist.

As we've moved onto weddings, I must admit I find a lot about them boring, if they go on too long.  I am, however, always interested to see the couple and their attendants in their finery and have been known to shed a tear when they take their vows. (2-5 years later I might shed a tear when they divorce).

[Owlswing]

Sassy's post: #208 on: Today at 08:47:47 AM »
I didn't want to quote it in full.
Sass I found that post quite disturbing and I wonder who the 'other foreigners' are that have come to our country, and who are worth mentioning.

Frankly, the post seemed reactionary in the extreme and somewhat racist.

Racist - yes, it is, but the Rochdale case was a spectacular demonstration of the attitude of some Pakistani men to white girls of any ethnic origin. It is not just in Rochdale either - it is the same in the area where I live - Hounslow/Southall.

Racist - yes, but in cases like this the immigrants and their English-born descendants do themselves no favours.

[Brownie]

I understand what you are saying Owlswing, there are little 'pockets' in certain areas where there are groups of unscrupulous men of 'Asian', Muslim, origin.  We see that in your part of London and bits of the East End.  In other parts of Britain, eg sections of Birmingham and Bradford in Yorkshire, there are many problems often centred around mini cab firms (there was a Birmingham poster on an old forum who shared with us that his 15 year old daughter had fallen under the influence of one particular minicab firm owner who manipulated her for his own gain.  He was quite distraught.  Thankfully, she got out of it and was OK).   However, if the abuse highlighted happened in a neighbouring area, the perpetrators wouldn't have Asian names.  When there were fewer people from the Indian subcontinent living here, the list would have comprised of 'English' names.  There have always been such goings on, I remember hearing about the same things when I was a teenager and another distinct ethnic group got the blame for much of it!   Now it is Asian Muslims and Russians but we mustn't forget perpetrators from the indiginous population, who have always been doing it here in different ways and always will.

When I was speaking of 'racism' I was more concerned about the 'foreigners' who have been allowed to come here, polluting and diluting 'our' culture, whatever that is,  and was wondering what constitutes a 'foreigner' nowadays.  How many of us have pure Anglo-Saxon roots or even know much about our ethnic origins.  I remember hearing the grown ups muttering about ''these foreigners'' when I was a kid, they were suspicious, hostile and largely ignorant.  Alf Garnett springs to mind. You don't hear the phrase, ''These foreigners'' much nowadays, it sounds anachronistic. 

[Sassy]

Child abusers come from ALL walks of life, religions, colour or creed. Think how many Christians have abused children, the pastor at our Pentecostal church touched me up when I was 14!

So you reported him and he went to prison?
The point was made in relation to...

Rubbish - in all sorts of respects our country is far, far more moral and respectful than it has ever been.

If you had read it, you would see that it did point out that the abusers come from everywhere in life. Like the celebrities
which were mentioned.

How many celebrities have been accused of molesting children? How many so called respected people turned a blind eye?
We have become the breeding ground for those who call themselves moral to do their immoral acts using our children.
Nah! No such moral or respect exists.

As you can see the point was about the moral and respectful comment being proved false.

[Sassy]

If that school is falling below the standards of education that we expect from our schools then the state/local authority has every right to intervene.

The education matter is totally different matter.

It doesn't really matter what the ju-ju is, whether it be Christian, Islamic, Jewish, etc, that is not the issue.

You never learn so where it comes to pupils who cannot really take things in when taught, it isn't about standards.
You read and write but you cannot take in any other side to an argument or understand the arguments put forward.
No amount of good education can open a permanently closed bias mind.
Re-education cannot remove the prejudices that come from a persons heart. It requires truth and they cannot accept of admit it.

Personally I would see all faith schools abolished as they are divisive and place their superstitious mumbo jumbo ahead of Maths, English, Sciences, etc

I would see all faith schools abolished except the Christian and Jewish schools.
Because they are basically what our Countries Faith is all about.
I would not allowed any other temples to be built to defile our land with idol and false God worship.
But then I think it doesn't matter eventually Christ will return and even atheists who grit their teeth will realise that it was for nothing that they dissed Jesus and God. Because they were the only persons who really cared and they dissed them.

[floo]

So you reported him and he went to prison?
The point was made in relation to...
If you had read it, you would see that it did point out that the abusers come from everywhere in life. Like the celebrities
which were mentioned.

As you can see the point was about the moral and respectful comment being proved false.

I did report him  to my parents, but as usual in those days nothing was done!

[Brownie]

I understand that floo, indeed most of us wouldn't even have told our parents.  As you said, nothing was done anyway but I do feel people were generally more naive in those days, things like child abuse were one-off horrific attacks that were read about in newspapers, no-one had much idea about friendly, higher status people who were doing it on a regular basis, getting into the minds of kids.  We are more streetwise nowadays and so are children, but I have no problem in believing that many adults, including those who perhaps should have known better, honestly didn't believe such things went on in their own circle and shied away from hearing about them.  The children who did speak out were considered to be indulging in some infantile make-believe (as if you'd 'make believe' about something so horrible), or 'dreaming';  they certainly wouldn't be believed over a teacher, doctor or clergyman.

Kids have it far better now, thank goodness.  They are listened to for a start and their feelings considered.

[floo]

I understand that floo, indeed most of us wouldn't even have told our parents.  As you said, nothing was done anyway but I do feel people were generally more naive in those days, things like child abuse were one-off horrific attacks that were read about in newspapers, no-one had much idea about friendly, higher status people who were doing it on a regular basis, getting into the minds of kids.  We are more streetwise nowadays and so are children, but I have no problem in believing that many adults, including those who perhaps should have known better, honestly didn't believe such things went on in their own circle and shied away from hearing about them.  The children who did speak out were considered to be indulging in some infantile make-believe (as if you'd 'make believe' about something so horrible), or 'dreaming';  they certainly wouldn't be believed over a teacher, doctor or clergyman.

Kids have it far better now, thank goodness.  They are listened to for a start and their feelings considered.

My mother who thought all clergy were gods, didn't believe me, and my father thought it amusing, LOVELY!

[Brownie]

Oh my word, floo, that is so horrible.  That's the sort of thing that is difficult to forgive.  What can mitigate it is frank talk about how confused and hurt you were, let down by them, and for them to understand and to agree that they would do it differently, etc, apologising unreservedly.

I know exactly what you mean though.  People didn't really believe it happened (except those who did it).   Tbh, the police weren't much good at that sort of thing either, they always looked to smooth things over and make it seem as though it was a misunderstanding.  They weren't particularly nice to children either.

---------
Sass, you say you would not allow any faith schools except Christian and Jewish, and then say you would not allow any temples/places of worship for other religions.  They are not faith schools, they are private places of worship.  Teaching goes on in them, as it does for us in church.  It would be a very unwelcoming place - well, some would say that's no bad thing, not me - an unfriendly place, hostile even.   The country would be the loser, we are known to be cosmopolitan and that is part of our nation's rich tapestry. The social outreach of the Hindu and Sikh's temples is a very helpful set up. Let people worship in their accepted way.  People are not going to be happy all the time, that's life, but a temple or whatever is something they can have that will bring them happiness.

---------------------------

Back to floo:  Ah well, the 'noughties'  bring us new concerns but for all that, I am glad we are living in the present times.

[Hope]

Supporting the couple and their families in their promises, besides being an odd idea in itself, for a few hours on just one day at the very start of the marriage seems downright peculiar, given that it's the months, years, even decades following when any such support is more likely to be needed.

Shakes, since I am generally invited to the weddings of relatives and close friends, or to those who I know from church, I see nothing odd about supporting the couple and their families at the very start of their marraige, especially when one is also involved in their lives on a regular basis for years after.

It's your assumption that one isn't thus involved down the line, in some way or other, that seems odd to me.

[Hope]

I was going to make exactly the same point.

And I'd make the same point to you, as I made to Shakes.  I attend the wedding because I anticipate being involved in the couple's life further down the track - either as an uncle or other relative, a close friend and/or someone they will meet regularly at church.

[Hope]

I believe religious studies did not bother anyone till we had other foreigners enter the country then want to teach their own religion in predominantly Christian Schools. I also believe that it is good for children to learn about all religions.

Whilst I would agree with your last sentence here, Sass, I'm not sure where you get the idea that RS (and it's more often that not referred to as RE [Religious Education] nowadays) 'did not bother anyone until we had other foreigners ...'  I'm glad that you have acknowleged that we already had 'foreigners' living in Britain/the UK - we've had Jews living here for centuries, not to mention French, Dutch, Scandinavians, central Europeans, etc - and OK they might not have been called by these nationalities in the past.

But you cannot call Religious Education brain washing. I live on planet earth as where else would you find life?

It is no less brainwashing than the teaching of history, science, languages, craft, geography, cooking, ... 

[Rhiannon]

And I'd make the same point to you, as I made to Shakes.  I attend the wedding because I anticipate being involved in the couple's life further down the track - either as an uncle or other relative, a close friend and/or someone they will meet regularly at church.

Which is fine. But you cannot assume that by my non-attendance and/or boredom at the day itself I'm not intending to offer my support in the future, if it's ever wanted.

[floo]

Oh my word, floo, that is so horrible.  That's the sort of thing that is difficult to forgive.  What can mitigate it is frank talk about how confused and hurt you were, let down by them, and for them to understand and to agree that they would do it differently, etc, apologising unreservedly.

I know exactly what you mean though.  People didn't really believe it happened (except those who did it).   Tbh, the police weren't much good at that sort of thing either, they always looked to smooth things over and make it seem as though it was a misunderstanding.  They weren't particularly nice to children either.

---------
Sass, you say you would not allow any faith schools except Christian and Jewish, and then say you would not allow any temples/places of worship for other religions.  They are not faith schools, they are private places of worship.  Teaching goes on in them, as it does for us in church.  It would be a very unwelcoming place - well, some would say that's no bad thing, not me - an unfriendly place, hostile even.   The country would be the loser, we are known to be cosmopolitan and that is part of our nation's rich tapestry. The social outreach of the Hindu and Sikh's temples is a very helpful set up. Let people worship in their accepted way.  People are not going to be happy all the time, that's life, but a temple or whatever is something they can have that will bring them happiness.

---------------------------

Back to floo:  Ah well, the 'noughties'  bring us new concerns but for all that, I am glad we are living in the present times.

Oh well that is all in the past, and in all honesty it didn't really upset me, unlike the religious aspect of my childhood which really did my head in.

[ippy]

Sassy's post: #208 on: Today at 08:47:47 AM »
I didn't want to quote it in full.
Sass I found that post quite disturbing and I wonder who the 'other foreigners' are that have come to our country, and who are worth mentioning.
Frankly, the post seemed reactionary in the extreme and somewhat racist.

As we've moved onto weddings, I must admit I find a lot about them boring, if they go on too long.  I am, however, always interested to see the couple and their attendants in their finery and have been known to shed a tear when they take their vows. (2-5 years later I might shed a tear when they divorce).

I often wonder why the women always wear the same dress? The white one?

ippy

[Owlswing]

I often wonder why the women always wear the same dress? The white one?

ippy

Because they are all virgins! Why else?

[Brownie]

I often wonder why the women always wear the same dress? The white one?

ippy

Hee hee, there does seem to be a trend at the moment for women to wear a traditional white wedding dress at their second or third wedding (NOT the same dress, 1980s big sleeves and flounce would hardly be appropriate in 2016!).  Nothing wrong with that but one would think they'd get fed up with it.  I was told that white symbolised (not only virginity which I would have thought was extremely unlikely), a fresh start.  Fairynuff.

How 'traditional' is the white dress though?   It has seemed to be so all my life but I'm sure in years gone by different types of attire were considered to be appropriate for brides.

Anyway, back in 1975, I wore a blue evening dress for my wedding so there.  I thought big white bridal dresses were naff. 

[floo]

I wonder how many brides are actually virgins on their wedding day, a very small minority I should imagine.

I think it crazy not to have sex with your intended before tying the knot, you need to know if you are compatible. She might want it ten times a day, and him once a month!

[Brownie]

A very small number indeed, floo, and most have lived together for a while.

I think it takes living together to know whether or not you are compatible.  It's so much more than sex and sometimes the sex wears off, especially if other things about living together are difficult, wearing in some ways.   If a couple can get through all that and still have high regard for eachother, after about ten years they could consider tying the knot  .

[floo]

A very small number indeed, floo, and most have lived together for a while.

I think it takes living together to know whether or not you are compatible.  It's so much more than sex and sometimes the sex wears off, especially if other things about living together are difficult, wearing in some ways.   If a couple can get through all that and still have high regard for eachother, after about ten years they could consider tying the knot  .

I am of the opinion it is sensible to live together for a while before making it permanent. Of course my parents would have gone crazy if I had lived with my husband before we wed. However, my husband and I were pleased our two married daughters lived with their spouses for a couple of years first. One has been married for 18 years, the other 16 years which isn't bad by today's standards.

[Owlswing]

I am of the opinion it is sensible to live together for a while before making it permanent. Of course my parents would have gone crazy if I had lived with my husband before we wed. However, my husband and I were pleased our two married daughters lived with their spouses for a couple of years first. One has been married for 18 years, the other 16 years which isn't bad by today's standards.

"Isn't bad!"

No, it isn't bad - it's damn close to a bloody miracle these days

[floo]

"Isn't bad!"

No, it isn't bad - it's damn close to a bloody miracle these days

My husband and I have managed 47 years in  August and haven't murdered each other yet, now that is a miracle!

[ippy]

Hee hee, there does seem to be a trend at the moment for women to wear a traditional white wedding dress at their second or third wedding (NOT the same dress, 1980s big sleeves and flounce would hardly be appropriate in 2016!).  Nothing wrong with that but one would think they'd get fed up with it.  I was told that white symbolised (not only virginity which I would have thought was extremely unlikely), a fresh start.  Fairynuff.

How 'traditional' is the white dress though?   It has seemed to be so all my life but I'm sure in years gone by different types of attire were considered to be appropriate for brides.

Anyway, back in 1975, I wore a blue evening dress for my wedding so there.  I thought big white bridal dresses were naff. Y

So Brownie you're telling me that the white dresses are all different designs and not all the same, adjusted for size of course.

Only my wife says to me when she sees a bride, "what a beautifull dress" and there am I thinking "it's white one, the same as the last one", ?

ippy

[Owlswing]

So Brownie you're telling me that the white dresses are all different designs and not all the same, adjusted for size of course.

Only my wife says to me when she sees a bride, "what a beautifull dress" and there am I thinking "it's white one, the same as the last one", ?

ippy

Ditto! Just with a higher price tag!