Mindfulness

[Bubbles]

Mindfulness

Was on BBC breakfast this morning.

It has been suggested the Gov invest in it rather than handing out pills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04xmqdd


What do you think? Is it helpful?

[Rhiannon]

Yes. I've studied it and use it for both anxiety as a part of CBT and for long-term musculoskeletal pain.

This organisation is a good starting point to find information and I use their resources.

http://www.breathworks-mindfulness.org.uk

The best authors and teachers are Professir Mark Williams, Dr Danny Penman, Vidyamala Burch and Jon Kabat Zinn.

However, there is a caveat, one which I know is acknowledged within the therapy profession. The evidence is that mindfulness is at least as good as pills for both depression/anxiety and pain relief, but it is a skill that needs to be learned and practiced. We have what Zinn describes as Full Catastrophe Living; the way in which we are taught how to live right from childhood, our education system, media, even our family life is very often the opposite of mindful. Mindfulness only works if practiced regularly, day after day, requiring a minimum of half an hour a day depending on the materials used and how deep you want to go. I know I don't practice enough so I don't get the full benefit. It requires a rethink on the part of both the medical profession and patients about going to the doctor to get fixed; mindfulness is about being given the tools to fix ourselves.

Another recommended read is one I suggested to O yesterday - Teach Us To Sit Still by the novelist Tim Parks, who cured his chronic pain with meditation in spite of being a complete sceptic.

[Bubbles]

Thanks.

It looked really interesting on the BBC.

[Outrider]

Our dependency on chemical treatments, combined with the pseudo-medical industry's attempts to medicalise every aspect of life, means that the more non-pharmaceutical treatments we can come up with the better.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Meds have their place. For someone in a bad way they can calm things down enough (mentally and/or physically) for other therapies to work. But they generally aren't effective on their own, which is how many GPs prescribe them, especially anti-depressants. From what I can gather they are also often prescribed in far higher doses than is usual when SSRIs are used alongside CBT. The aim should be to use an SSRI or pain relief whilst starting out with therapies/mindfulness/rehab and then adjust the balance until the meds are no longer needed or are only required in small doses.

[Hope]

Mindfulness

Was on BBC breakfast this morning.

It has been suggested the Gov invest in it rather than handing out pills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04xmqdd


What do you think? Is it helpful?

Is there any scientific evidence to indicate that it is anything other than equivalent to acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, etc?

[floo]

Mindfulness

Was on BBC breakfast this morning.

It has been suggested the Gov invest in it rather than handing out pills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04xmqdd


What do you think? Is it helpful?

Is there any scientific evidence to indicate that it is anything other than equivalent to acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, etc?

I would have thought Mindfulness was in the same category as the above, as is prayer.

[Rhiannon]

Mindfulness

Was on BBC breakfast this morning.

It has been suggested the Gov invest in it rather than handing out pills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04xmqdd


What do you think? Is it helpful?

Is there any scientific evidence to indicate that it is anything other than equivalent to acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, etc?

I would have thought Mindfulness was in the same category as the above, as is prayer.

No, it isn't a form of prayer, it is a form of refocusing the mind to be fully aware of the present rather than fretting over past or future. Through this people often find that the present is better than they thought it was, too.

[Rhiannon]

Mindfulness

Was on BBC breakfast this morning.

It has been suggested the Gov invest in it rather than handing out pills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04xmqdd


What do you think? Is it helpful?

Is there any scientific evidence to indicate that it is anything other than equivalent to acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, etc?

http://www.breathworks-mindfulness.org.uk/research

http://marc.ucla.edu/workfiles/pdfs/MARC-mindfulness-research-summary.pdf

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/mindfulness/research.php.en

This is just a brief Google. There's a lot more out there if you want to look.

[floo]

Mindfulness

Was on BBC breakfast this morning.

It has been suggested the Gov invest in it rather than handing out pills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04xmqdd


What do you think? Is it helpful?

Is there any scientific evidence to indicate that it is anything other than equivalent to acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, etc?

I would have thought Mindfulness was in the same category as the above, as is prayer.

No, it isn't a form of prayer, it is a form of refocusing the mind to be fully aware of the present rather than fretting over past or future. Through this people often find that the present is better than they thought it was, too.

I was referring to the placebo effect.

[Nearly Sane]

Except prayer is a non naturalistic claim and doesn't really lend itself to science. All we can really do is investigate if a certain method performs better than (a) doing nothing and (b) the placebo effect.

If it does, even were we to not understand why, we would be obliged to call it medicine. The complexity is added to when it comes to mental issues since we struggle to really define functioning in that field. In that regard mindfulness, CBT, talking therapies can be partially compared with drug therapy but the clarity of results in the field of study is difficult.


The way to determine this is testing. On that basis if you accept the definition of functioning then it may well perform better than drug therapy but that does not mean it is a panacea, if there is any such thing. Further, given the complexity of this, there is a sense in which it may effectively be a form of drug therapy.

I rarely agree with Sriram on stuff like this, for example homeopathy is just snake oil to me or at least the memory of snake oil, but we are other than in a few specific circumstances, at the same stage in mental health as we were pre vaccination. (I will refrain from my opinion on the mental health of the anti vaxxers movement)

[Rhiannon]

Mindfulness

Was on BBC breakfast this morning.

It has been suggested the Gov invest in it rather than handing out pills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04xmqdd


What do you think? Is it helpful?

Is there any scientific evidence to indicate that it is anything other than equivalent to acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, etc?

I would have thought Mindfulness was in the same category as the above, as is prayer.

No, it isn't a form of prayer, it is a form of refocusing the mind to be fully aware of the present rather than fretting over past or future. Through this people often find that the present is better than they thought it was, too.

I was referring to the placebo effect.

There's no placebo in mindfulness. If you don't practice it, it doesn't work. It's like going to the gym or learning times tables, you need to actually do something in order for it to have an effect.

[Nearly Sane]

And let's be careful about the rather casual use of the term placebo effect, as if all, or indeed, any of us really understand it. In many ways it would be better if we called it the Fuctivanov effect (named after the Bulgarian who scored in a muddy goalmouth stramash against Scotland by an excited but short sighted commentator).

[Rhiannon]

Except prayer is a non naturalistic claim and doesn't really lend itself to science. All we can really do is investigate if a certain method performs better than (a) doing nothing and (b) the placebo effect.

If it does, even were we to not understand why, we would be obliged to call it medicine. The complexity is added to when it comes to mental issues since we struggle to really define functioning in that field. In that regard mindfulness, CBT, talking therapies can be partially compared with drug therapy but the clarity of results in the field of study is difficult.


The way to determine this is testing. On that basis if you accept the definition of functioning then it may well perform better than drug therapy but that does not mean it is a panacea, if there is any such thing. Further, given the complexity of this, there is a sense in which it may effectively be a form of drug therapy.

I rarely agree with Sriram on stuff like this, for example homeopathy is just snake oil to me or at least the memory of snake oil, but we are other than in a few specific circumstances, at the same stage in mental health as we were pre vaccination. (I will refrain from my opinion on the mental health of the anti vaxxers movement)

I think what we do know is that some mental health issues such as schizophrenia and psychosis do need meds and may be made worse by visualisation, meditation etc.

I think what we are beginning to learn is the relationship between the mind and illness. Stress and tension is a major factor in my own musculoskeletal problem, although not the only cause. In Parks' book he recounts how surgeons were ready to operate on his prostate even though there was no evidence of a pathology; learning to relax muscles tightened over years of chronic stress meant he not only avoided surgery but cured the problem.

[Nearly Sane]

That's why I was careful to point out that there are exceptions but those exceptions are both the way we use to advance knowledge and an indication that it can be advanced that doesn't mean that the idea of functioning mentally is not hugely problematic and it is based an idea that is much harder to define than physical illness.

[Rhiannon]

Increasingly I think we will be looking at doing what works rather than needing to show why it works, at least for now.

[Outrider]

Increasingly I think we will be looking at doing what works rather than needing to show why it works, at least for now.

That's been the case for quite a while. Unless something's changed fairly recently, for instance, we still don't know exactly why many anaesthetics actually work, we just know that they do - but we need them, and so we use them.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

We always have focussed on that. The problem in the area of mental health though is the question of what 'works' means. If we could have stopped Van Gogh committing suicide would we have stopped the painting? How about the use of frontal lobotomy? Did it work, or did it just reduce the individual.

I see there are moves to get homophobia designated a mental illness; not that long after we regarded homosexuality as one. Do we even see through this glass darkly, or are we just fumbling in the dark?

[Rhiannon]

Increasingly I think we will be looking at doing what works rather than needing to show why it works, at least for now.

That's been the case for quite a while. Unless something's changed fairly recently, for instance, we still don't know exactly why many anaesthetics actually work, we just know that they do - but we need them, and so we use them.

O.

In which case we are opening up to acupuncture and reiki on the NHS. Both 'work' for some people (I can attest to the latter being very good for pain relief)

[Outrider]

Increasingly I think we will be looking at doing what works rather than needing to show why it works, at least for now.

That's been the case for quite a while. Unless something's changed fairly recently, for instance, we still don't know exactly why many anaesthetics actually work, we just know that they do - but we need them, and so we use them.

O.

In which case we are opening up to acupuncture and reiki on the NHS. Both 'work' for some people (I can attest to the latter being very good for pain relief)

There is some limited evidence to suggest that acupuncture can be effective for certain circumstances - ironically, if I recall correctly, pain relief is one of them.

Individual anecdotes, aside, however, I'm not aware of any reliable evidence that reiki is in any way effective.

O.

[Rhiannon]

We always have focussed on that. The problem in the area of mental health though is the question of what 'works' means. If we could have stopped Van Gogh committing suicide would we have stopped the painting? How about the use of frontal lobotomy? Did it work, or did it just reduce the individual.

I see there are moves to get homophobia designated a mental illness; not that long after we regarded homosexuality as one. Do we even see through this glass darkly, or are we just fumbling in the dark?

Homophobia is a phobia - a mental illness - but we very often call people who are prejudiced, blinkered and nasty 'homophobes', when they aren't.

I think we need to ensure that wherever we go with mental health, we don't enforce a uniform idea of 'well' and 'normal' on people. Would neutering Van Gogh's visionary talent have been an equally unendurable hell for him?

[Nearly Sane]

Increasingly I think we will be looking at doing what works rather than needing to show why it works, at least for now.

That's been the case for quite a while. Unless something's changed fairly recently, for instance, we still don't know exactly why many anaesthetics actually work, we just know that they do - but we need them, and so we use them.

O.

In which case we are opening up to acupuncture and reiki on the NHS. Both 'work' for some people (I can attest to the latter being very good for pain relief)

Personal testimony doesn't cut it here. You need a study. As per previous comments it would have to show better than nothing and placebo. Your attestation in and of itself is worthless.

[Nearly Sane]

A phobia is defined as irrational based on an idea of normality, it is not an easy term to define. We could have called homosexuality heterophobia, it does not make it anything other than a classification.

[Rhiannon]

Increasingly I think we will be looking at doing what works rather than needing to show why it works, at least for now.

That's been the case for quite a while. Unless something's changed fairly recently, for instance, we still don't know exactly why many anaesthetics actually work, we just know that they do - but we need them, and so we use them.

O.

In which case we are opening up to acupuncture and reiki on the NHS. Both 'work' for some people (I can attest to the latter being very good for pain relief)

There is some limited evidence to suggest that acupuncture can be effective for certain circumstances - ironically, if I recall correctly, pain relief is one of them.

Individual anecdotes, aside, however, I'm not aware of any reliable evidence that reiki is in any way effective.

O.

There's a bit here.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancers-in-general/treatment/complementary-alternative/therapies/reiki

Personally I tried acupuncture, which hurts. Reiki does the job for me. I've now trained in it but I don't practice it for others.

The important thing is to bear in mind that while effective for some it's complementary to medicine, not alternative to.

[Rhiannon]

A phobia is defined as irrational based on an idea of normality, it is not an easy term to define. We could have called homosexuality heterophobia, it does not make it anything other than a classification.

Did you know there's no name for driving phobia?