Proselytism

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

This has been my argument against all sects of Christianity. They have a lot of people who, in private and in public - the proselytisers - can talk the talk with remarkable skill; what they lack is the ability to walk the walk.

Yes Owlswing but there is the opposite problem with paganism isn't there since the innate reluctance to talk about it on the part of pagans has led inexorably to the most common perception of pagans as people who just like dressing up and strutting about.

[Rhiannon]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

Yes People learn about things in different ways but I think there is the fact that Christianity is as big and as comprehensive a commitment as you can get.
It is so big I think that if people feel antipathy towards it they need to be asking themselves why.

Do you mean a commitment in loving God or in the lifestyle that comes with faith? Because that sounds as though you believe Christians lead a superior life to non-Christians, which manifestly isn't the case.

[Rhiannon]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

This has been my argument against all sects of Christianity. They have a lot of people who, in private and in public - the proselytisers - can talk the talk with remarkable skill; what they lack is the ability to walk the walk.

Yes Owlswing but there is the opposite problem with paganism isn't there since the innate reluctance to talk about it on the part of pagans has led inexorably to the most common perception of pagans as people who just like dressing up and strutting about.

And that post demonstrates why we don't talk about it. People have made their minds up already.

[Owlswing]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

This has been my argument against all sects of Christianity. They have a lot of people who, in private and in public - the proselytisers - can talk the talk with remarkable skill; what they lack is the ability to walk the walk.

Yes Owlswing but there is the opposite problem with paganism isn't there since the innate reluctance to talk about it on the part of pagans has led inexorably to the most common perception of pagans as people who just like dressing up and strutting about.

As I have said, pagans do not proselytise. This does NOT mean that we do not talk bout our beliefs.

We are perfectly willing to talk about them but we do it in a different way.

We wait for someone to ask us a question about our beliefs and then we answer that question, and any foillow-up questions.

On this forum that usually results in people like you making facetious, stupid, ignorant comments and we, not surprisingly, respond by refusing to answer any more of your questions just so you and your friends can make further smart-arse comments that are not even remotely smart anything.

If you treated our beliefs with the respect that you demand for yours, you might get more positive responses.

Just becasue we are Pagans does not mean that we are straightmen/women to Christian so-called comedians.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

Yes People learn about things in different ways but I think there is the fact that Christianity is as big and as comprehensive a commitment as you can get.
It is so big I think that if people feel antipathy towards it they need to be asking themselves why.

Do you mean a commitment in loving God or in the lifestyle that comes with faith? Because that sounds as though you believe Christians lead a superior life to non-Christians, which manifestly isn't the case.

No I mean the commitment to God. I think you'll find it's some atheists who bang on about the superiority of life in materialist countries.
I think you know that people who feel antipathetic to the commitment will use stuff like ''what about the crusades, what about Fred Phelps etc'' as an excuse to deny the felt antipathy when what they are actually resistant to is the God who is calling them........I speak as one who did this himself.
That is why I say one should explore the antipathetic feelings....as St Augustine, St Paul, The writer of Isiaih and John Bunyan and many others have done.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

This has been my argument against all sects of Christianity. They have a lot of people who, in private and in public - the proselytisers - can talk the talk with remarkable skill; what they lack is the ability to walk the walk.

Yes Owlswing but there is the opposite problem with paganism isn't there since the innate reluctance to talk about it on the part of pagans has led inexorably to the most common perception of pagans as people who just like dressing up and strutting about.

As I have said, pagans do not proselytise. This does NOT mean that we do not talk bout our beliefs.

We are perfectly willing to talk about them but we do it in a different way.

We wait for someone to ask us a question about our beliefs and then we answer that question, and any foillow-up questions.

On this forum that usually results in people like you making facetious, stupid, ignorant comments and we, not surprisingly, respond by refusing to answer any more of your questions just so you and your friends can make further smart-arse comments that are not even remotely smart anything.

If you treated our beliefs with the respect that you demand for yours, you might get more positive responses.

Just becasue we are Pagans does not mean that we are straightmen/women to Christian so-called comedians.

Well then you have grasped my point then.....Just because you are perceived as people who dress up doesn't mean there isn't more to it.

I eagerly await answers to my questions of you without your customary abuse and secrecy.

[Rhiannon]

What questions? Ask away.

[Rhiannon]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

Yes People learn about things in different ways but I think there is the fact that Christianity is as big and as comprehensive a commitment as you can get.
It is so big I think that if people feel antipathy towards it they need to be asking themselves why.

Do you mean a commitment in loving God or in the lifestyle that comes with faith? Because that sounds as though you believe Christians lead a superior life to non-Christians, which manifestly isn't the case.

No I mean the commitment to God. I think you'll find it's some atheists who bang on about the superiority of life in materialist countries.
I think you know that people who feel antipathetic to the commitment will use stuff like ''what about the crusades, what about Fred Phelps etc'' as an excuse to deny the felt antipathy when what they are actually resistant to is the God who is calling them........I speak as one who did this himself.
That is why I say one should explore the antipathetic feelings....as St Augustine, St Paul, The writer of Isiaih and John Bunyan and many others have done.

But I can speak as one who knocked and called and found nothing after experiencing a very deep faith. There was no resistance on my part. I would once have given anything to have a relationship with God again.

[Owlswing]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

This has been my argument against all sects of Christianity. They have a lot of people who, in private and in public - the proselytisers - can talk the talk with remarkable skill; what they lack is the ability to walk the walk.

Yes Owlswing but there is the opposite problem with paganism isn't there since the innate reluctance to talk about it on the part of pagans has led inexorably to the most common perception of pagans as people who just like dressing up and strutting about.

As I have said, pagans do not proselytise. This does NOT mean that we do not talk bout our beliefs.

We are perfectly willing to talk about them but we do it in a different way.

We wait for someone to ask us a question about our beliefs and then we answer that question, and any foillow-up questions.

On this forum that usually results in people like you making facetious, stupid, ignorant comments and we, not surprisingly, respond by refusing to answer any more of your questions just so you and your friends can make further smart-arse comments that are not even remotely smart anything.

If you treated our beliefs with the respect that you demand for yours, you might get more positive responses.

Just becasue we are Pagans does not mean that we are straightmen/women to Christian so-called comedians.

Well then you have grasped my point then.....Just because you are perceived as people who dress up doesn't mean there isn't more to it.

I eagerly await answers to my questions of you without your customary abuse and secrecy.

There is the problem - or at least part of it - you claim that I have grasped your point.

Not so, you have, with your usual "put your opponent on the back foot" dexterity, changed the point.

I have yet to see you ask a straight point - the last time I tried to answer you fully and honestly I realised, after about six or seven questions, what your point was and challenged you on it - refusing to answer any more in a series of questions that were asked, quite obviously, to give you a hook on which to hand more of your (in your eyes) witticisms at the expoense of paganism! Result, you stopped posting on the thread, which, to me, proved I had you right. 

You ask one question, I answer, you make no comment but ask another question:

On stage: What does this mean?

Me: It means this.

On stage: Yes, but what does this mean?

Me; It means this.

On stage: Yes, but what does it mean?

As I said - this is not a game I intend to play again! You have played it so often I see it in and behind anything you ask.

Sorry, but where I would answer the same opening questions that you might ask if they come from some someone elses I will not answer you and you only have yourself to blame for that!
 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But what to do when the evidence says that talking to non-believers about Jesus puts them off? Perhaps the way to bring people into your church would be through how you live and not what you say?

Yes People learn about things in different ways but I think there is the fact that Christianity is as big and as comprehensive a commitment as you can get.
It is so big I think that if people feel antipathy towards it they need to be asking themselves why.

Do you mean a commitment in loving God or in the lifestyle that comes with faith? Because that sounds as though you believe Christians lead a superior life to non-Christians, which manifestly isn't the case.

No I mean the commitment to God. I think you'll find it's some atheists who bang on about the superiority of life in materialist countries.
I think you know that people who feel antipathetic to the commitment will use stuff like ''what about the crusades, what about Fred Phelps etc'' as an excuse to deny the felt antipathy when what they are actually resistant to is the God who is calling them........I speak as one who did this himself.
That is why I say one should explore the antipathetic feelings....as St Augustine, St Paul, The writer of Isiaih and John Bunyan and many others have done.

But I can speak as one who knocked and called and found nothing after experiencing a very deep faith. There was no resistance on my part. I would once have given anything to have a relationship with God again.

Do you thus think that
a) He does not wish to have a relationship with you or
b) everything confirmed your do doubts about him?

[Rhiannon]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to. At first I thought God didn't want me. I then had to conclude that was incompatible with a loving God so I ended up no longer believing such a god existed.

[Owlswing]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to. At first I thought God didn't want me. I then had to conclude that was incompatible with a loving God so I ended up no longer believing such a god existed.

That is hardly a surprise to anyone who is not totally blinkered by believeing that god will accept anyone who truly believes in him!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

[Owlswing]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

Not callous - but closed-minded.

A truly loving god would turn up regardless of what you asked and tell you why it was not possible for him to help and how to deal with the problem yourself - not just ignore you.

[Rhiannon]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

Make me feel I wasn't facing the worst moment of my life alone. I thought my child was dying.

[Sriram]

If I may join the conversation, the help and support that we get when we believe in a God is from within ourselves. There is a higher part of us that is always listening and supporting. 

There could be two problems however. One is that our mental turbulence and agitation could prevent many messages from reaching the higher self. This calls for some amount of composure and confidence even during troubled times. Second is that  our destiny would already be decided and major changes may not happen....but protective and supportive help will certainly come from the higher self in any case. 

[Owlswing]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

Make me feel I wasn't facing the worst moment of my life alone. I thought my child was dying.

. . . and this is the god who sees every sparrow that falls, but ignores kids dying by the thousand!

[Owlswing]

If I may join the conversation, the help and support that we get when we believe in a God is from within ourselves. There is a higher part of us that is always listening and supporting. 

There could be two problems however. One is that our mental turbulence and agitation could prevent many messages from reaching the higher self. This calls for some amount of composure and confidence even during troubled times. Second is that  our destiny would already be decided and major changes may not happen....but protective and supportive help will certainly come from the higher self in any case.

You reckon - try it sometime!

When I was Christian I found that if I called on him for anything at all I only ever got an engaged signal! I have found far too many followers of religions other than Christianity and of no relgion were brought up in Christian homes and found that what they were taught did not match up with the reality.

All my three children were brought up in thneir mother's and maternal grandmother's Christian belief - my son is now probably about as complete an atheist as you could possibly imagine and both my daughters are pagan - not because I taught them to be pagans  - the older daughter converted me to paganism not the other way round! When her mother divorced me (mainly becuase my salary did not match up to her spending requirements) it hit her far harder than I ever imagined and she visited the local Christian church that she had attended with her mother and me; The priest was, at that time, female and my nine-year old poured out her heart to her.

The response of this vicar of the Christian, all-loving god'd, vicar?

"Do you really consider that you are the only person in the world with problems - go home, pray, and grow up and deal with it!"

Is it any wonder she rejected her mother's religion. And she cannot be the only one who has had this kind of treatment from the Christian church or the Christian god or his representatives.

[jeremyp]

Good! I have a low opinion of Protestantism especially, who went from error to deeper error.

What would those errors be, ad_o?

An inherent rationalism, iconoclasm, a low viewof to even outright rejection of the sacraments, scripture alone, to name just a few, all reasons why some went even so far as to adopt many of the ancient heresies such as Arianism (for insance some of the rebaptisers did just that).

Ad O - you are the perfect example of a Christian Fundamentalist.

Not at all. "Fundamentalism" is a reductionist term, reductionism being something I would reject.

You can reject it all you like - virtually every reference you make to your beliefs show an attachment to a set of rules that are totally inflexible and that is my definition of Fundamentalist!

Wouldn't it be great if something could be made not true just by rejecting it. I reject that I am fat. I reject that I have no musical talent. I reject that England got knocked out of the RWC early.

Fantastic, my life is already.... exactly the same. Damn.

[jeremyp]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

You're an idiot aren't you?

The answer is right there in the post, she was begging him to show up - to be there when she asked.

[Hope]

The answer is right there in the post, she was begging him to show up - to be there when she asked.

Why is OSBITO an idiot, jeremy?  'to do what' or equally 'in what way' are perfectly legit. questions to ask in such a situation.  What OSB was effectively asking was in what way did Rhi - or any one else - expect God to manifest himself?  In human form?  As an audible voice?  It reminds me of the famous analogy about the man who, on arrival at the Judgement Seat told Jesus that he had asked Jesus to rescue him from a flood situation and why he hadn't arrived.

Jesus' response was, "I arranged for plenty of warning so that you could escape before it arrived - but you ignored that; I sent a boat to rescue you, but you refused that help saying that you had asked God to rescue you; finally, I sent a rescue helicopter, but you refused that as well."

[Hope]

Fortunately nothing much changed in India and muslims are even today only 15% and Christians only about 2%.

If that's the case, why are the RSS so incensed about the 'huge numbers of conversions',Sriram?

[Hope]

There seems to be a down on the sharing of faith.

I would agree with that, OSB, but not the rest of the post.  The issue is that Jesus' final instruction to his followers was to 'go out and spread the "Good news of the Kingdom of God", making disciples as you go'.  In other words, the chief role of the Christian church is to evangelise: it isn't to worship, or for fellowship or even the doing of social action.  It is to evangelise the world.

[jeremyp]

The answer is right there in the post, she was begging him to show up - to be there when she asked.

Why is OSBITO an idiot, jeremy?

Wow it must be catching. He asked a question about a post that contained the answer and now, so have you. In fact, you even quoted the bit that explains why Vlad the Polisher is an idiot.

'to do what' or equally 'in what way' are perfectly legit. questions to ask in such a situation.

As long as you don't mind looking like an idiot because the answer is already there.

What OSB was effectively asking was in what way did Rhi - or any one else - expect God to manifest himself?

No he wasn't, at least, if he was, I dispute your use of the adverb "effectively".

Jesus' response was, "I arranged for plenty of warning so that you could escape before it arrived - but you ignored that; I sent a boat to rescue you, but you refused that help saying that you had asked God to rescue you; finally, I sent a rescue helicopter, but you refused that as well."

She asked God to show up, not a man in a lifeboat.

[Hope]

Wow it must be catching. He asked a question about a post that contained the answer and now, so have you.

No, jeremy, she said that she begged him to 'show up'.  That isn't an answer, it is a request.  The question we are asking the answer to is - how did she expect him to 'turn up'?  Did he do so and she fail to recognise him for waht he was?

As long as you don't mind looking like an idiot because the answer is already there.

Actually, part of the answer appeared in subsequent posts by Rhi - yet she still hasn't explained in what manner she hoped he would appear in? 

No he wasn't, at least, if he was, I dispute your use of the adverb "effectively".

You can dispute to your heart's content, but when I have had discussions with people who have made similar comments to Rhi's they have said that they had envisaged God appearing in a given way - an audible voice, an angelic appearance, etc. and that a mundane nurse/counsellor/advisor didn't match their expectations.

She asked God to show up, not a man in a lifeboat.

'Allegory', jeremy.  In other words, as Christ instructs Christians to be his hands and feet (etc.) if a person turns up in a metaphorical 'lifeboat' it doesn't mean that s/he isn't Christ responding to one's request.