Proselytism

[Shaker]

I am not confused at all since God is with us all the time.

How many miles to the gallon does your Assertatron do?

He hasn't pretended ever to save us from everything, (after all he did not save his son/self)

Which one is it?

[Hope]

I treat this comment with the contempt it deserves. You have been told "TO DO WHAT" several times, but because YOU cannot handle the answer . . .

Oddly enough, Matt, I've been told the several different answers to 'TO DO WHAT' by a number of people on the thread, but only once by Rhi - in a post that not only appeared several posts after US's original post was made, but also hasn't made an attempt to answer my question.  In fact, I'm not sure that she has even tried to answer it yet - though several others have made their own uninformed attempts to do so.

[Hope]

Which one is it?

Shaker, good to see you back again.  I assume your question refers to OS's 'son/self' comment.  In the NT Jesus teaches that they are one and the same, so there is no 'which one' involved.

[Shaker]

Which one is it?

Shaker, good to see you back again.  I assume your question refers to OS's 'son/self' comment.  In the NT Jesus teaches that they are one and the same, so there is no 'which one' involved.

It's not possible for someone to be other than their own self, by definition, but what you seem to be saying is that an alleged entity is both itself and its own son at the same time.

Do you consider this a sane, rational, coherent concept?

[jeremyp]

And yet you accuse the Christian God of being exactly that to Rhiannon and applaud her decision not to worship him for those very reasons!

The Christian god is advertised as a loving god, the gods of Owlswing are not. You Christians have set expectations that your god seems to want to refuse to meet. Pagans don't seem to set any expectations of their gods.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which one is it?

Shaker, good to see you back again.  I assume your question refers to OS's 'son/self' comment.  In the NT Jesus teaches that they are one and the same, so there is no 'which one' involved.

It's not possible for someone to be other than their own self, by definition, but what you seem to be saying is that an alleged entity is both itself and its own son at the same time.

Do you consider this a sane, rational, coherent concept?

The use of metaphors can be sane and rational and are here.
After all how can a particle be a wave and a probability function.....How for that matter can you or I have a wavelength or frequency.
The trouble is metaphors can be stretched or taken too literally. The sonship of Christ (God) expresses the relationship internal to God with the father (also God)

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And yet you accuse the Christian God of being exactly that to Rhiannon and applaud her decision not to worship him for those very reasons!

The Christian god is advertised as a loving god, the gods of Owlswing are not. You Christians have set expectations that your god seems to want to refuse to meet. Pagans don't seem to set any expectations of their gods.

Ask what people think love is and you will come up with as many variations as people.
As long as we pitch our own definition of love against that of who we love then we have a relationship where the two parties are not in understanding of one another.

The Christian God has never advertised himself as someone who will save us form everything but as someone who will save us.

You seem to be left with what theologians call the Gumball machine God.

[Rhiannon]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

Not callous - but closed-minded.

A truly loving god would turn up regardless of what you asked and tell you why it was not possible for him to help and how to deal with the problem yourself - not just ignore you.

Sorry Owlswing but that just begs the question.....'' Where were your Gods?''.

When?

When Rhi called on them? She didn't. She called on YOUR god, which, at the time, was also her god, and, surprise surprise, he proceeded to do sweet fuck all.

Then, unsiurprisingly, she dropped him!

Good on her, say I.

So she dropped him in favour of god's who couldn't help her?

Don't talk shit about things you don't understand.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

Not callous - but closed-minded.

A truly loving god would turn up regardless of what you asked and tell you why it was not possible for him to help and how to deal with the problem yourself - not just ignore you.

Sorry Owlswing but that just begs the question.....'' Where were your Gods?''.

When?

When Rhi called on them? She didn't. She called on YOUR god, which, at the time, was also her god, and, surprise surprise, he proceeded to do sweet fuck all.

Then, unsiurprisingly, she dropped him!

Good on her, say I.

So she dropped him in favour of god's who couldn't help her?

Don't talk shit about things you don't understand.

I think it's very presumptious of you to say you know what I understand or don't.
I talk about Christianity but apparently, according to you I don't understand even that.

Nobody understands what you are going on about apart from you rejected Christ.Nobody knows what that means in your case, Nobody knows why you thought you had Christ in the first place, how did you know you had Christ?
Had his presence ever been felt by you? We don't know these things because you start with the bald statement ''Christ let me down''and that only satisfies the confirmation bias of Jeremy and Owlswing.

In fact nobody can constructively engage in this because we don't know the background.

[Rhiannon]

Hope has often talked about how the central point of Christianity is a relationship with God. That is what I believed I once had. A feeling of not being alone. A feeling that God was present. One day that feeling/presence just went. It was not long after this that one of my children had several serious health scares and this is when I called out to God so I didn't feel alone. I didn't want miracles, I didn't need medical rescue - she was in good hands - I just wanted to feel - held. As I had before in good times and bad.

To clarify, I don't think God is an arsehole. I just don't think the Christian God exists.

I didn't 'drop' God. I fought for two, three years, to hang onto my faith. It didn't happen. It wasn't what I wanted.

Things are different for me now. Better. I only need to look at the clouds and I know I'm a part of something bigger, and I feel so small. And that's ok.

[Rhiannon]

I thought that the God I believed in would have shown up when I begged him to.

I don't wish to sound callous but the first question that pops into my mind is ''to do what?''

Not callous - but closed-minded.

A truly loving god would turn up regardless of what you asked and tell you why it was not possible for him to help and how to deal with the problem yourself - not just ignore you.

Sorry Owlswing but that just begs the question.....'' Where were your Gods?''.

When?

When Rhi called on them? She didn't. She called on YOUR god, which, at the time, was also her god, and, surprise surprise, he proceeded to do sweet fuck all.

Then, unsiurprisingly, she dropped him!

Good on her, say I.

So she dropped him in favour of god's who couldn't help her?

Don't talk shit about things you don't understand.

I think it's very presumptious of you to say you know what I understand or don't.
I talk about Christianity but apparently, according to you I don't understand even that.

Nobody understands what you are going on about apart from you rejected Christ.Nobody knows what that means in your case, Nobody knows why you thought you had Christ in the first place, how did you know you had Christ?
Had his presence ever been felt by you? We don't know these things because you start with the bald statement ''Christ let me down''and that only satisfies the confirmation bias of Jeremy and Owlswing.

In fact nobody can constructively engage in this because we don't know the background.

You don't understand because you don't know what it was like for me. I didn't want to lose my faith and the anguish it caused me was enormous. The presumption is on your part when you say I 'dropped' Jesus. For your own sake I hope you don't have to go through the same.

[Shaker]

Things are different for me now. Better. I only need to look at the clouds and I know I'm a part of something bigger, and I feel so small. And that's ok.

That's quite lovely 

[Rhiannon]

Yeah, it took a while to get here but it's good.

[Shaker]

Have you heard of Paul Harrison? He has written well on pantheism - he is, or at least certainly was, the president of the World Pantheist Movement.

[Owlswing]

Hope has often talked about how the central point of Christianity is a relationship with God. That is what I believed I once had. A feeling of not being alone. A feeling that God was present. One day that feeling/presence just went. It was not long after this that one of my children had several serious health scares and this is when I called out to God so I didn't feel alone. I didn't want miracles, I didn't need medical rescue - she was in good hands - I just wanted to feel - held. As I had before in good times and bad.

To clarify, I don't think God is an arsehole. I just don't think the Christian God exists.

I didn't 'drop' God. I fought for two, three years, to hang onto my faith. It didn't happen. It wasn't what I wanted.

Things are different for me now. Better. I only need to look at the clouds and I know I'm a part of something bigger, and I feel so small. And that's ok.

A brilliant statement of the basis of pagan thought - to be part of just about anything that exists - not just "me" as an entity but also "me" as an intergral part of world.

[Shaker]

Seems appropriate here:

Christians can do 'more harm than good' by speaking openly about their faith, a study for the Church of England’s ruling body has found.

The research for the General Synod and a coalition of other Christian groups has suggested that practising Christians who talk about their beliefs to friends and colleagues are three times more likely to put them off God as to attract them to the faith, the Daily Telegraph reported.

Four in 10 people answering the research also said they did not think that Jesus was a 'real person who actually lived'. Some 22 per cent thought he was a 'mythical or fictional character'.

... the research also found that when non-believers were asked if a practising Christian had ever spoken to them about their faith, only 19 per cent wanted to know more.

Rt Rev Michael Hill, Bishop of Bristol, said the findings had been 'greeted with disbelief' by the Synod, whose 470 members have been sent copies of the study, called Talking Jesus.

http://goo.gl/RkuE7K

[jeremyp]

The Christian God has never advertised himself as someone who will save us form everything but as someone who will save us.

He failed to save Rhiannon.

The expectations aren't set by God, they are set by Christians who keep claiming that, "if you open your heart, Christ will come" or some other variation thereof.

[Rhiannon]

The Christian God has never advertised himself as someone who will save us form everything but as someone who will save us.

He failed to save Rhiannon.

The expectations aren't set by God, they are set by Christians who keep claiming that, "if you open your heart, Christ will come" or some other variation thereof.

I didn't need saving 'from everything'. I just needed to feel I wasn't alone.

You've hit the nail, Jeremy - Christians state over and over that all you need to do is ask and God will be there. And I asked and asked and he wasn't. And according to Christians the only person to blame for that was me. I didn't notice when he was there. I had sin on my conscience. And my favourite - my faith was never real in the first place.

[Outrider]

So she dropped him in favour of god's who couldn't help her?

Other gods who ALSO wouldn't help her - let's not forget your deity's failure to assist.

O.

[floo]

The only way belief in a deity could possibly help an individual is by employing the placebo effect, imo. If you really, really believe something to be true, from time to time it can have a beneficial effect on your psyche.

[OH MY WORLD!]

People like Rose only take note of the ones that try ramming it down their throats. Actually that would be assault.

Paul gives us the example of how we should be sharing the gospel. Like he did on Mars Hill.

[Hope]

The only way belief in a deity could possibly help an individual is by employing the placebo effect, imo. If you really, really believe something to be true, from time to time it can have a beneficial effect on your psyche.

And what weight does your opinion hold, Floo - especially when you remember how often folk like Jim, Alien and I have shown it to be false?

[Shaker]

The only way belief in a deity could possibly help an individual is by employing the placebo effect, imo. If you really, really believe something to be true, from time to time it can have a beneficial effect on your psyche.

And what weight does your opinion hold, Floo - especially when you remember how often folk like Jim, Alien and I have shown it to be false?

Where and when, specifically, with links, did these refutations take place?

[Hope]

... let's not forget your deity's failure to assist.

We only have Rhi's implication that he didn't provide help in the way that she was anticipating, O.  Remember that help can arrive in different forms, and can sometimes work out to more effective in a form that we aren't anticipating.

[Outrider]

... let's not forget your deity's failure to assist.

We only have Rhi's implication that he didn't provide help in the way that she was anticipating, O.

At the risk of putting words in Rhi's mouth for her, it seems fairly clear that your god didn't help her at all, that's why she ended up with different ones.

Remember that help can arrive in different forms, and can sometimes work out to more effective in a form that we aren't anticipating.

Or, to paraphrase, if nothing appears to happen, wait long enough and claim responsibility for whatever randomly happens along, but don't acknowledge the bad things in the first place. That's a robust mechanism, if ever there was one.

O.