Proselytism

[Owlswing]

Christian proselytism ...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/faith/article4602163.ece

"Christians who speak openly about their faith with friends and colleagues are three times more likely to put them off God than attract them, research carried out privately by the Church of England has found.
The study found that 59 per cent of people “did not want to know more about Jesus Christ” after speaking to a practising Christian about their faith.
The survey of more than 2,500 adults discovered 42 per cent “felt glad” they did not share their friends’ faith after talking with them and 30 per cent felt “more negative” towards Jesus.
The stark findings will challenge the church, which is wrestling with the problem of declining and ageing congregations, with a quarter of churches in England having a weekly attendance of fewer than 16 worshippers.
The study, Talking Jesus: Perceptions of Jesus, Christians and evangelism in England, was commissioned by the Church of England and faith groups the Evangelical Alliance and Hope."

It merely demonstrates that the ego does not want to be challenged with any view which suggests it is not as ''in the pink'' as it would like to view itself.

Do you have any idea how egotistical that sounds?

Of course he doesn't!

He cannot see just how much his views on Christianity are those that are driving people to reject it.

He is one of those to whom the comments

Christians who speak openly about their faith with friends and colleagues are three times more likely to put them off God than attract them, research carried out privately by the Church of England has found.
The study found that 59 per cent of people “did not want to know more about Jesus Christ” after speaking to a practising Christian about their faith.

.

It is regrettable that he cannot see this and that this negative reaction also applies equally to some posters on this forum!

Hope and Sassy should also take note of this!

[Rhiannon]

It's not their views on Christianity that put me off. It's what that does to their views of others.

[Outrider]

It merely demonstrates that the ego does not want to be challenged with any view which suggests it is not as ''in the pink'' as it would like to view itself.

No, it's pretty much the same reaction we get to any hard-sales pitch - if I'm interested in your product it's not like it's hard to find out where to get it, until I do that leave me alone.

O.

[Hope]

Christian proselytism ...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/faith/article4602163.ece

"Christians who speak openly about their faith with friends and colleagues are three times more likely to put them off God than attract them, research carried out privately by the Church of England has found.
The study found that 59 per cent of people “did not want to know more about Jesus Christ” after speaking to a practising Christian about their faith.
The survey of more than 2,500 adults discovered 42 per cent “felt glad” they did not share their friends’ faith after talking with them and 30 per cent felt “more negative” towards Jesus.
The stark findings will challenge the church, which is wrestling with the problem of declining and ageing congregations, with a quarter of churches in England having a weekly attendance of fewer than 16 worshippers.
The study, Talking Jesus: Perceptions of Jesus, Christians and evangelism in England, was commissioned by the Church of England and faith groups the Evangelical Alliance and Hope."

Interestingly, Udayana, Friendship Evangelism also sits very high on the list of reasons why people become Christians (not sure whether this is the case for other faiths, tho.)

 

Statistics

When researchers asked new converts, "What was the major influence in leading you to Christ and the Church?", they responded:

    Church advertising 2%

    The preacher 6%

    Organized evangelism programs 6%
   Friends and relatives 86%

[Adapted from "Evangelism: The Why and How" by Elmer L. Towns, in Church Growth State of the Art, C. Peter Wagner, ed. (Wheaton: Tyndale, 1988), p. 53. ]

I realise that the source is quite old, but the figures are supported by the experience of my own church and many others I know of.

[Outrider]

Christian proselytism ...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/faith/article4602163.ece

"Christians who speak openly about their faith with friends and colleagues are three times more likely to put them off God than attract them, research carried out privately by the Church of England has found.
The study found that 59 per cent of people “did not want to know more about Jesus Christ” after speaking to a practising Christian about their faith.
The survey of more than 2,500 adults discovered 42 per cent “felt glad” they did not share their friends’ faith after talking with them and 30 per cent felt “more negative” towards Jesus.
The stark findings will challenge the church, which is wrestling with the problem of declining and ageing congregations, with a quarter of churches in England having a weekly attendance of fewer than 16 worshippers.
The study, Talking Jesus: Perceptions of Jesus, Christians and evangelism in England, was commissioned by the Church of England and faith groups the Evangelical Alliance and Hope."

Interestingly, Udayana, Friendship Evangelism also sits very high on the list of reasons why people become Christians (not sure whether this is the case for other faiths, tho.)

 

Statistics

When researchers asked new converts, "What was the major influence in leading you to Christ and the Church?", they responded:

    Church advertising 2%

    The preacher 6%

    Organized evangelism programs 6%
   Friends and relatives 86%

[Adapted from "Evangelism: The Why and How" by Elmer L. Towns, in Church Growth State of the Art, C. Peter Wagner, ed. (Wheaton: Tyndale, 1988), p. 53. ]

I realise that the source is quite old, but the figures are supported by the experience of my own church and many others I know of.

Statistically, though, you're measuring from a different set. Yes, 86% of people who are in the church may have arrived through friends and family, but that's the set that have already taken to the church.

If you want to attract more you need to be targetting your efforts in the areas where more current unresponsive people will respond - that means you need the percentages from the general populace.

As an aside, I wonder how much of that 86% is made up of people who moved congregations from one sect to another, rather than new adherents to Christianity?

O.

[Owlswing]

Statistics

When researchers asked new converts, "What was the major influence in leading you to Christ and the Church?", they responded:

    Church advertising 2%

    The preacher 6%

    Organized evangelism programs 6%
   Friends and relatives 86%

[Adapted from "Evangelism: The Why and How" by Elmer L. Towns, in Church Growth State of the Art, C. Peter Wagner, ed. (Wheaton: Tyndale, 1988), p. 53. ]

I realise that the source is quite old, but the figures are supported by the experience of my own church and many others I know of.

[/quote]

Talk about a biased source!

Hope

The figures quoted were from a survey carried out by the Christian Church!

The lengths to which you will go to defend the indefensible are truly breathtaking.

[ekim]

The late Russian Orthodox Church's Patriarch Alexiy II seemed to have done a good recruiting job after decades of repression under communism.  The Russian Orthodox Church now claims nearly 70% of Russia's population  (about 100 million people) as members .

[Rhiannon]

I think if the Church was suppressed here (including music and art, even the churches themselves) there would be a surge in support. Like it it not it's a part of our national identity.

[Shaker]

But will that continue? Over the coming decades I strongly suspect not. The vast bulk of the population (by a very long way) is utterly apathetic toward religion, the younger generations even more so. By the time that those who are now teenagers are middle aged (or older) will the British social/cultural landscape still see the Church as part of that identity? I don't see it. There was a report last week (or thereabouts) where (IIRC) 4 out of 10 didn't regard Jesus as a historically real figure*. On the strength of all evidence these trends run only one way.

* To be sure, the matter isn't a done deal beyond all and any dispute, whatever some may say.

[Rhiannon]

I really don't know. Certainly in my rural part of the country it's a big deal still and it will be a while before that changes.

[Shaker]

I really don't know. Certainly in my rural part of the country it's a big deal still and it will be a while before that changes.

In rural areas especially it is, frankly, the elderly keeping the churches open. What we know though is the well-attested phenomenon in sociology of cohort replacement. (Simple definition: old people die and young people come along in their place). The younger generations are simply not stepping in to fill the gaps left by the now deceased.

[Rhiannon]

I really don't know. Certainly in my rural part of the country it's a big deal still and it will be a while before that changes.

In rural areas especially it is, frankly, the elderly keeping the churches open. What we know though is the well-attested phenomenon in sociology of cohort replacement. (Simple definition: old people die and young people come along in their place). The younger generations are simply not stepping in to fill the gaps left by the now deceased.

Our local Baptist chapel has this issue, the Anglican Church not so much. Mostly because people find it a way of meeting nice families for their kids to hang out with.

But I'm not really talking so much about churchgoing for religion. I'm talking about the culture - I'm sure we all know atheists who attend choral music programmes in church, admire church architecture and religious art. I even know someone who attend carol services every Christmas just because. I think if this kind of cultural Christianity was suppressed, as it was in Russia, there would be a groundswell of support. It's not about religion, but identity and expression.

[Outrider]

I really don't know. Certainly in my rural part of the country it's a big deal still and it will be a while before that changes.

In rural areas especially it is, frankly, the elderly keeping the churches open. What we know though is the well-attested phenomenon in sociology of cohort replacement. (Simple definition: old people die and young people come along in their place). The younger generations are simply not stepping in to fill the gaps left by the now deceased.

Our local Baptist chapel has this issue, the Anglican Church not so much. Mostly because people find it a way of meeting nice families for their kids to hang out with.

But I'm not really talking so much about churchgoing for religion. I'm talking about the culture - I'm sure we all know atheists who attend choral music programmes in church, admire church architecture and religious art. I even know someone who attend carol services every Christmas just because. I think if this kind of cultural Christianity was suppressed, as it was in Russia, there would be a groundswell of support. It's not about religion, but identity and expression.

Absolutely, best not to validate it with prohibition, better to just let it fade apathetically away. The architecture will still be there, the history and artistry, and all the anachronistic philosophy can be used to populate characters in popular fantasy works.

O.

[Hope]

Statistically, though, you're measuring from a different set. Yes, 86% of people who are in the church may have arrived through friends and family, but that's the set that have already taken to the church.

A criticism that can be equally applied to Udayana's figures, as they were - iirc - exclusive of believers.

If you want to attract more you need to be targetting your efforts in the areas where more current unresponsive people will respond - that means you need the percentages from the general populace.

As an aside, I wonder how much of that 86% is made up of people who moved congregations from one sect to another, rather than new adherents to Christianity?

Can't speak for the Orthodox or Catholics - and none of the stats I know of include the Catholics simply because they don't share their figures with the rest of Christendom - all the stats I know of ONLY refer to new adherents.  Yes, they would include conversion from JW or Mormonism, but they are seen as being different faiths both by the Church and the law.  Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans and other Protestant denominations regard transfers from one to another as just that, not new conversions.

[Rhiannon]

Personally I think a lot of it will be reinterpreted. There's a lot in religious myth that is illuminating once we get away from the need for 'history' and 'proof'. Religious art too has a great deal to teach us about ourselves.

The buildings are a problem though. What do we do with the redundant medieval churches? They can't all be coffee shops and community hubs. Making them all private residences sweeps away the right of the public to visit them. That isn't going to be popular either.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm talking about the culture - I'm sure we all know atheists who attend choral music programmes in church, admire church architecture and religious art.

Yup that's right.

I am one of those people - on Wednesday and Thursday I'll be practicing with my choir (secular, but largely perform sacred music) in two different churches in preparation for a concert on Saturday in one of the churches.

The musical heritage (and indeed this is maintained with new choral pieces being written today) is exceptionally rich and I would't want to see it lost whatsoever. But you don't need to believe to enjoy singing sacred music. And actually increasingly sacred choral music is being kept alive by secular choirs rather than by traditional church choirs signing as part of worship. In fact many churches seem to have actively turned their backs on their traditional choral heritage in favour of (often excruciating) folk/rock type offerings, beloved by the happy clappies which is typically bereft of any genuine musical quality.

[Hope]

Our local Baptist chapel has this issue, the Anglican Church not so much. Mostly because people find it a way of meeting nice families for their kids to hang out with.

Interestingly, that seems to be bucking the national trend, Rhi.  OK, the Baptist congregation may be a fairly 'high' Baptist one, and the Anglican a fairly evangelical one.

Peter Brierley's Christian Research group are finding that the congregations that are fading fastest are the non-evangelical (and in the CoE, the Anglo-Catholic) ones.  In other words the ones who have a high proportion of cultural, rather than religious attendees.

But I'm not really talking so much about churchgoing for religion. I'm talking about the culture - I'm sure we all know atheists who attend choral music programmes in church, admire church architecture and religious art. I even know someone who attend carol services every Christmas just because. I think if this kind of cultural Christianity was suppressed, as it was in Russia, there would be a groundswell of support. It's not about religion, but identity and expression.

I would disagree it would be a groundswell of support.  From where I stand and from what I've seen happen, it tends to be that the non-cultural members are released from the constraints often imposed by the often middle-class 'what can I get out if this place' members that stop many churches actually doing what Christ asked his followers to do - care for the sick, feed the poor, support the disadvantaged, and share the gospel, etc.  I've attended churches where the 'culturals' regularly voted against anything that smacked of social action and of reaching out to, and including, the needy and disadvantaged.

[Outrider]

A criticism that can be equally applied to Udayana's figures, as they were - iirc - exclusive of believers.

Possibly - probably, even - but not definitively so. Certainly I can imagine that perfectly devout Hindus, Muslims or Anglicans could be unhappy at overt proselytising from their Catholic friends, for instance.

Can't speak for the Orthodox or Catholics - and none of the stats I know of include the Catholics simply because they don't share their figures with the rest of Christendom - all the stats I know of ONLY refer to new adherents.  Yes, they would include conversion from JW or Mormonism, but they are seen as being different faiths both by the Church and the law.

Genuinely, here, I wasn't aware that the law made a judgement on what was a Christian faith and what wasn't, do you have a reference source I could look at regarding that?

O.

[Udayana]

Statistically, though, you're measuring from a different set. Yes, 86% of people who are in the church may have arrived through friends and family, but that's the set that have already taken to the church.

A criticism that can be equally applied to Udayana's figures, as they were - iirc - exclusive of believers.
...

The "Talking Jesus" survey was supposedly from a representative sample. It was conducted by an organisation trying to find the best ways to evangelise Christianity.

"This piece of research has been conducted with the hope and prayer that it will
be a major catalyst for effective and focused evangelism in the decades to come. "

http://www.talkingjesus.org/research/upload/Perceptions-of-Jesus-Christians-and-Evangelism-Executive-Summary.pdf

[Shaker]

That's faith for you 

[Gordon]

I've often wondered why the mainstream UK-based Christian sects actually bother with evangelising in this day and age.

After all, anyone not already involved but wanting to find out more isn't exactly going to struggle to find a point of contact, which I'd imagine is about as easy as checking out where the local golf clubs are.   

[Hope]

I'm talking about the culture - I'm sure we all know atheists who attend choral music programmes in church, admire church architecture and religious art.

Is that 'cultural religion'?  Not in my book.  Cultural religion is religion that is church (mosque/temple)-centric and seeks to create a social club atmosphere that imposes restrictions on who can come in/partake - 'no poor people here, only middle class'; 'no unmarried couples, gays, paedophiles or whatever', ... .  The Church in Wales congregation in our village is very much like that, to the extent that reference to Biblical teaching used to be few and far between.

After all, Jesus' primary teaching wasn't primarily about worshipping him or meeting together one day a week in a particular building: nor was it primarily to heal people or help the poor.  The prime focus of his teaching - and the last instruction - was 'to go out and preach the gospel, making disciples as you go'.

The longer these folk are around, the quicker the church will shrivel.

[Hope]

I've often wondered why the mainstream UK-based Christian sects actually bother with evangelising in this day and age.

They do it because it's the Church's only raison d'etre, Gordon.

[Rhiannon]

I'm talking about the culture - I'm sure we all know atheists who attend choral music programmes in church, admire church architecture and religious art.

Yup that's right.

I am one of those people - on Wednesday and Thursday I'll be practicing with my choir (secular, but largely perform sacred music) in two different churches in preparation for a concert on Saturday in one of the churches.

The musical heritage (and indeed this is maintained with new choral pieces being written today) is exceptionally rich and I would't want to see it lost whatsoever. But you don't need to believe to enjoy singing sacred music. And actually increasingly sacred choral music is being kept alive by secular choirs rather than by traditional church choirs signing as part of worship. In fact many churches seem to have actively turned their backs on their traditional choral heritage in favour of (often excruciating) folk/rock type offerings, beloved by the happy clappies which is typically bereft of any genuine musical quality.

Indeed. And I strong,y suspect that the suppression of their own musical and artistic heritage, coupled with the loss of identity as part of the USSR, is what has driven many Russians to the Russian Orthodox Church. I think we'd see the same support here because we too understand the value of our culture.

The drive to 'modernise' church music has come from two quarters. One has been a failed attempt to be more 'relevant' to the young. But another has been the cost and state of many church organs and the lack of decent organists, and a shortage of choir members. My local churches couldn't dream of having decent choral music on a regular basis. Much easier and cheaper to have a bloke with a guitar or even just a praise CD downloaded and played through a speaker.

[Hope]

The "Talking Jesus" survey was supposedly from a representative sample. It was conducted by an organisation trying to find the best ways to evangelise Christianity.

"This piece of research has been conducted with the hope and prayer that it will
be a major catalyst for effective and focused evangelism in the decades to come. "

http://www.talkingjesus.org/research/upload/Perceptions-of-Jesus-Christians-and-Evangelism-Executive-Summary.pdf

Precisely, Udayana, it was looking at the best way to reach non-believers.  After all, with the exception of ultra-fundamentalists, Christians don't try to 'evangelise' other Christians.  One doesn't 'evangelise Christianity'; one evangelises people.  You can have a perfectly good representative sample of any sub-group - one doesn't need the whole population to provide that.

By the way, if you look at the introduction, you will notice that there was second, separate, survey carried out amongst some 1500 practising Christians.  Whilst the original survey was carried out on a balanced group of 2500-odd it would, in the circumstances, seem odd to include Christians in the first one as well as it could provide a skewed outcome.  I assume the second survey was designed as some sort of control group.