Proselytism

[Hope]

As you say if a person seeks out a believer to talk about their faith NO PROBLEM. It is the uninvited believer who wants to proselytise to the uninterested, which is a problem.

It would be interesting to discover what proportion of evangelism/proselytism is done in the former way and what proportion in the latter.  At the same, I see nothing wrong with sharing one's faith with people you know well and whose level of interest one would already know.  I have been asked about my faith by non-Christian friends as a result of both angina attack earlier this year and following my stroke 10 days ago.

[Owlswing]

As you say if a person seeks out a believer to talk about their faith NO PROBLEM. It is the uninvited believer who wants to proselytise to the uninterested, which is a problem.

It would be interesting to discover what proportion of evangelism/proselytism is done in the former way and what proportion in the latter.  At the same, I see nothing wrong with sharing one's faith with people you know well and whose level of interest one would already know.  I have been asked about my faith by non-Christian friends as a result of both angina attack earlier this year and following my stroke 10 days ago.

Equally you would know their level of disinterest and it is those who should be left alone not subjected to religious propaganda!

[Sebastian Toe]

What do you call it when Gordon's arguments come underfire?

Battered Keich.

When its from you, Vlad, I'd say 'sadly laughable' is a better fit.

btw what does 'Toelies' mean? Is this the secret password for members of the RD Appreciation Society?

I think he means 'toley'

as in;

Whereas 'shit' may in some cases be construed as good (the classic 'this is good shit man') there is no positive derviation of toley - it is wholly negative in its connotation!

Toley is a word that is often used to greatest effect as part of a more creative insulting ramble e.g "Fuckin' useless toley prick"
http://www.odps.org/glossword/index.php?a=term&d=4&t=12069

[floo]

As you say if a person seeks out a believer to talk about their faith NO PROBLEM. It is the uninvited believer who wants to proselytise to the uninterested, which is a problem.

It would be interesting to discover what proportion of evangelism/proselytism is done in the former way and what proportion in the latter.  At the same, I see nothing wrong with sharing one's faith with people you know well and whose level of interest one would already know.  I have been asked about my faith by non-Christian friends as a result of both angina attack earlier this year and following my stroke 10 days ago.

Fine they asked you about it, would you have shared your faith if they hadn't?

[Owlswing]

As you say if a person seeks out a believer to talk about their faith NO PROBLEM. It is the uninvited believer who wants to proselytise to the uninterested, which is a problem.

It would be interesting to discover what proportion of evangelism/proselytism is done in the former way and what proportion in the latter.  At the same, I see nothing wrong with sharing one's faith with people you know well and whose level of interest one would already know.  I have been asked about my faith by non-Christian friends as a result of both angina attack earlier this year and following my stroke 10 days ago.

Fine they asked you about it, would you have shared your faith if they hadn't?

Yes, of course he would! He can't help himself!

[floo]

As you say if a person seeks out a believer to talk about their faith NO PROBLEM. It is the uninvited believer who wants to proselytise to the uninterested, which is a problem.

It would be interesting to discover what proportion of evangelism/proselytism is done in the former way and what proportion in the latter.  At the same, I see nothing wrong with sharing one's faith with people you know well and whose level of interest one would already know.  I have been asked about my faith by non-Christian friends as a result of both angina attack earlier this year and following my stroke 10 days ago.

Fine they asked you about it, would you have shared your faith if they hadn't?

Yes, of course he would! He can't help himself, just as he couldn't help himself reminding us of his health problems, foir which he has my sympathy and my hopes for a speedy recovery, but noot when used as a toool in an arguement.

I think that is a bit mean! I don't think Hope is using his health problems as intro for proselytising.

[Nearly Sane]

Yep, with Floo here, nothing in Hope's post indicates that he is using his illness as a tool in this argument. Explaining that he might struggle to reply in depth is surely reasonable?

[Hope]

Fine they asked you about it, would you have shared your faith if they hadn't?

I've known many of the folk at the railway, for instance, for 6 or 7 years.  They know my religious beliefs and - if, in the course of a general conversation on Saturday (I need to go up to the shed to do some railway paperwork), one of them asks about the state of my mental health I'll quite happily say that my religious beliefs have - over the years - protected me from feeling that I'd be better off dead for instance.  I use that example because I've just had the nurse from my Early Supported Discharge team come to ask me some questions, and that was one of the questions she had to ask me - and that was the answer I gave her.

[ProfessorDavey]

Fine they asked you about it, would you have shared your faith if they hadn't?

I've known many of the folk at the railway, for instance, for 6 or 7 years.  They know my religious beliefs and - if, in the course of a general conversation on Saturday (I need to go up to the shed to do some railway paperwork), one of them asks about the state of my mental health I'll quite happily say that my religious beliefs have - over the years - protected me from feeling that I'd be better off dead for instance.  I use that example because I've just had the nurse from my Early Supported Discharge team come to ask me some questions, and that was one of the questions she had to ask me - and that was the answer I gave her.

Sure but I'm not sure that is proselytising unless you are aiming to convert people.

I regularly espouse how wonderful I think choral singing is for my general well being. I'm sure people might call me evangelical. But this is about how good it feels to me, and I freely accept and understand that there are plenty of others for whom choral singing would leave them cold or be the last thing they wanted to do. I'm not trying to convert anyone, merely telling them about how much I enjoy it.

But for it to be proselytism surely the agenda isn't merely to tell someone how important your religion is to you, but to try to convert them. That's different.

Now I guess there have been rare occasions where I have 'converted' others to choral singing - but actually this has only been when the response to me telling someone how much I enjoy it has been 'yes I used to sing, really enjoyed it too, but haven't done it for years'. To which my response has been to suggest they get back into it and to suggest there is likely to be a choir nearby. On a few occasions friends have done this, but this is always with people who have indicated their interest already.

[Hope]

Sure but I'm not sure that is proselytising unless you are aiming to convert people.

Proselytising is sharing one's faith with others, PD.

I regularly espouse how wonderful I think choral singing is for my general well being. I'm sure people might call me evangelical. But this is about how good it feels to me, and I freely accept and understand that there are plenty of others for whom choral singing would leave them cold or be the last thing they wanted to do. I'm not trying to convert anyone, merely telling them about how much I enjoy it.

The problem with this analogy is that it falls down on the universal benefits argument.  As a Christian, I believe that God created humanity - and the rest of the natural world - and that he has the welfare of the whole of the natural world at heart.  Would you not agree that if you had a understanding that you believed was beneficial to the whole world that you would be irresponsible not to share that? 

Let's give another analogy.  An ever-increasing number of medical experts are telling us that all Over 50's would benefit from a regular dose of statins.  Many of the public seem to disagree - even quoting surveys and studies in support of their views.  Are you saying that the medics should not cold-sell the efficacy of statins simply because some people don't want to hear the information?

But for it to be proselytism surely the agenda isn't merely to tell someone how important your religion is to you, but to try to convert them. That's different.

I think you are getting mixed up a bit.  Few if any Christians believe that they can convert anyone; they believe that that is what God does in the 'privacy' of a person's soul.  What they do believe is that someone has to be exposed to the Gospel before they can come to a point at which they choose to even consider conversion.  I presume that you would agree with that basic way of thinking as regards choral singing and its health benefits.

[ProfessorDavey]

Proselytising is sharing one's faith with others, PD.

No it isn't - to be proselytism it has to be aimed at converting the other person. Merely discussing your faith with others isn't proselytism unless there is an aim to convert the other person.

[ProfessorDavey]

Would you not agree that if you had a understanding that you believed was beneficial to the whole world that you would be irresponsible not to share that?

Well given that there is no evidence to back up that claim, to suggest so would represent an extremely arrogant and presumptive point of view, effectively to presume you knew better about other's lives  and what was good for them than they did.

[ProfessorDavey]

Let's give another analogy.  An ever-increasing number of medical experts are telling us that all Over 50's would benefit from a regular dose of statins.  Many of the public seem to disagree - even quoting surveys and studies in support of their views.  Are you saying that the medics should not cold-sell the efficacy of statins simply because some people don't want to hear the information?

But in the case of the medics there would be an evidence base to support their opinion and recommendations. Without that evidence based (as is the case for religion where there is no evidence) then it would be entirely wrong for medics to cold sell the purported efficacy of a treatment if there wasn't evidence to back up the claim.

And actually even in cases where there is good medical evidence I don't believe I have ever had a knock at the door, opened it to find a medic trying to cold sell the benefits of some drug to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

What they do believe is that someone has to be exposed to the Gospel before they can come to a point at which they choose to even consider conversion.  I presume that you would agree with that basic way of thinking as regards choral singing and its health benefits.

Sure there are parts of the world where few, if any, people have heard of christianity so there may be some 'exposure' needed. But in the UK most people are well aware that christianity exists and what its basic tenets are plus will no doubt know some christians - they are perfectly capable of choosing to pop along to a church should they choose - there is usually one just a short walk away for most of us. It costs nothing. If they don't it is because they have chosen not to.

[Outrider]

But in the case of the medics there would be an evidence base to support their opinion and recommendations. Without that evidence based (as is the case for religion where there is no evidence) then it would be entirely wrong for medics to cold sell the purported efficacy of a treatment if there wasn't evidence to back up the claim.

Yes and no - that's more about your willingness to listen to their argument, given the nature of the argument. The motive on the part of the person delivering it is the same: they want to help.

And actually even in cases where there is good medical evidence I don't believe I have ever had a knock at the door, opened it to find a medic trying to cold sell the benefits of some drug to me.

That, to some extent, is because of the laws around advertising medicines in the UK (and perhaps the EU?) and the way patients interact with doctors - medical advertising in the US, for instance, is scary - not directly related to the thread, but to this issue, I'd highly recommend Ben Goldacre's book 'Bad Pharma' on the state of the US pharmaceutical industry.

O.

[Shaker]

I regularly espouse how wonderful I think choral singing is for my general well being. I'm sure people might call me evangelical. But this is about how good it feels to me, and I freely accept and understand that there are plenty of others for whom choral singing would leave them cold or be the last thing they wanted to do. I'm not trying to convert anyone, merely telling them about how much I enjoy it.

It's a basic human reaction. I know from plentiful direct personal experience that if I've read a particularly good book, or seen an especially good film, or heard a particularly good piece of music, I'll tell others around me in the hope that they might have the same reaction to it and derive as much pleasure from it as I've done. Surely this is the basis of the 'Music was my first love' thread, otherwise, why share links?

However. I have sufficient imagination to know that all people are different and don't respond to the same thing in the same way. There are several dedicated Terry Pratchett fans on the forum, for example, someone whose books despite repeated attempts to read quite a few of them leave me cold. I absolutely cannot see anything to enjoy in Strictly Come Dancing, X Factor or Downton Abbey, or any soap opera come to that - some of the highest rated programmes on British television, watched and enjoyed by many millions. I might think that more people's lives would be enriched and given a lifetime of delight if they listened to Sibelius, for example, andI've been known to say so; but religious proselytisiation isn't and religious proselytisers aren't like this. Given YouTube and Amazon/Kindle, anybody who might be interested in Sibelius or this book can find out for themselves - it's all out there, they don't need any pushing from me. If somebody isn't interested in the latest superb novel I've just finished, that's the end of the matter. They're not interested and that's that. I don't need telling twice. Religious proselytisers are rarely, if ever, so obliging, seeing it as their bounden duty to impart a message - in fact, a mission - that they must share come what may.

But for it to be proselytism surely the agenda isn't merely to tell someone how important your religion is to you, but to try to convert them. That's different.

Precisely.

[Rhiannon]

I think one reason why I enthuse about my own passions is because I'd like someone to share them with, discuss them. It's very frustrating to have to internalise it all.

[Owlswing]

As you say if a person seeks out a believer to talk about their faith NO PROBLEM. It is the uninvited believer who wants to proselytise to the uninterested, which is a problem.

It would be interesting to discover what proportion of evangelism/proselytism is done in the former way and what proportion in the latter.  At the same, I see nothing wrong with sharing one's faith with people you know well and whose level of interest one would already know.  I have been asked about my faith by non-Christian friends as a result of both angina attack earlier this year and following my stroke 10 days ago.

Fine they asked you about it, would you have shared your faith if they hadn't?

Yes, of course he would! He can't help himself, just as he couldn't help himself reminding us of his health problems, foir which he has my sympathy and my hopes for a speedy recovery, but noot when used as a toool in an arguement.

I think that is a bit mean! I don't think Hope is using his health problems as intro for proselytising.

Post edited!

[Owlswing]

Yep, with Floo here, nothing in Hope's post indicates that he is using his illness as a tool in this argument. Explaining that he might struggle to reply in depth is surely reasonable?

Post edited!

[Nearly Sane]

Kudos, Owlswing.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Well I just can't hold back. Fasten your seat belts and take your dose of evangelist Jonathan Bell.  You're welcome. (smilies)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r0Fvbi70mg

This dude is for real but I removed the second link because Mr. Nearly is missing a sense of humour. A monkey sitting on a rock stole it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCfnPaSNohc

[Nearly Sane]

Well I just can't hold back. Fasten your seat belts and take your dose of evangelist Jonathan Bell.  You're welcome. (smilies)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r0Fvbi70mg

mammon worshipper. I take it that given you are punting a charged for access you will be banned as spamming?

[OH MY WORLD!]

No actually that guy is so unbelievable I just posted that second link to show he's for real. Sorry that you didn't actually listen to the first link. I'm not punting anything nor was i charged to click on that second link. It was free for me.

Have a nice night Mr. Nearly and have a magic cookie.

[Nearly Sane]

No actually that guy is so unbelievable I just posted that second link to show he's for real. Sorry that you didn't actually listen to the first link. I'm not punting anything nor was i charged to click on that second link. It was free for me.

Have a nice night Mr. Nearly and have a magic cookie.

I just took the link you had which was charged for. Nothing free o. It. Things work differently over net, but even then you think the word of your god is worth charging for. What a Money grabbing God you love.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Charged for? Who got charged?