Proselytism

[Owlswing]

I gather that in the olden days the Quakers used to call the days of the week First Day, Second Day etc. to avoid the use of pagan names.

They knew how to walk the walk and not be hypocrites, mind

And I wonder how many of the 'original' Pagans borrowed names and terminology from their predecessors?  How many atheists 'hypocritically' borrow terminology from their religious predecessors?  Remember that terminology is not inherently 'pagan' or 'religious' or even 'atheist'.  It is cultural.

I wonder how many of the 'original' Pagans borrowed names and terminology from their predecessors?

Name predecessors prior to 23,000 BC please - that is how old the oldest pagan religious artifact so far diiscovered is?

[ProfessorDavey]

Whether they were or not, the point is, do atheists adhere to these now generally accepted Christian days?  If so, they are hypocrites.  "Christianity" requires a capital letter, as it is a proper noun.

So we're not allowed to celebrate Christmas because we're not Christians, but we're not allowed to drop Christmas because the Christians will cry about it - see the recent media articles about Starbucks' choice of cups for the holiday season.

Christmas is a cultural event that has moved beyond the purely religious institution it may have once been, just as it has moved beyond the pagan festival it was before the Christians hijacked it.

Like marriage, it was there before Christians and we won't be dictated to about how we treat these civil institutions.

O.

O.

Abject nonsense.  Christmas is a Christian Festival now, and you hypocrites are simply clutching at straws to try and justify indulging in things Christmassy.  Have the courage of your "convictions!"

In which case Easter is a pagan festival and you are a hypocrite for celebrating it in any other manner than a pagan one.

More to the point, what day is it? Surely not Monday, named by pagans after the moon? Surely, BA, you've good, decent Christian names of the days of the week? You wouldn't be so hypocritical as to casually adopt the pagan names for days of the week when you're such an upstanding Christian, would you?

O.

And there is a double whammy in Easter Sunday, named after both a pagan spring deity and a sun deity. And apparently that is the most important day in the Christian calendar. I've no problem with this, but apparently there are some people who don't think that others should celebrate a festival unless they believe in the god(s) it is named after.

[Shaker]

4:12pm:

Eastrun was/is the pagan festival, and whilst I accept that the term 'Easter' is related to that name and the goddess it was in celebration of, 'Easter' as such is a Christianised form of the word.

Sixteen minutes later:

Remember that terminology is not inherently 'pagan' or 'religious' or even 'atheist'.  It is cultural.

Somebody's confused and I don't think it's me.

[ProfessorDavey]

I gather that in the olden days the Quakers used to call the days of the week First Day, Second Day etc. to avoid the use of pagan names.

They knew how to walk the walk and not be hypocrites, mind

And I wonder how many of the 'original' Pagans borrowed names and terminology from their predecessors?  How many atheists 'hypocritically' borrow terminology from their religious predecessors?  Remember that terminology is not inherently 'pagan' or 'religious' or even 'atheist'.  It is cultural.

But we're not the ones (or at least I am not) who are claiming some kind of monopoly on a festival based on the origin of its name.

It isn't hypocrisy to celebrate Christmas as a mid-winter festival and also Easter as a spring festival (and also to be perfectly happy for others to celebrate both as Christian festivals). It is however hypocrisy to claim a monopoly on Christmas (i.e. that it must be a Christian festival) due to the origin of its name, but then happily celebrate Easter as a Christian festival, conveniently ignoring the origin of its name.

[ProfessorDavey]

But in the UK we call it Easter, not passion or any other such name which has a Christian connotations. So if you call it Easter, then to avoid claims of hypocrisy on your part (not mine remember as I'm relaxed about how people celebrate) then it is a pagan celebration, not a Christian one. So if non Christians are hypocrites for celebrating Christmas then non-pagans are just as hypocritical for celebrating Easter.

But I reiterate again - I don't care - celebrate as you wish - all these festivals are multifaceted, incorporating all sorts of religious and cultural influences, and also they evolve over time.

Actually, PD, Easter is not a pagan celebration and never has been.  Eastrun was/is the pagan festival, and whilst I accept that the term 'Easter' is related to that name and the goddess it was in celebration of, 'Easter' as such is a Christianised form of the word.  Furthermore, that is only an Anglo-Germanic link.  Many other European languages have terms that derive from the Latin 'pasche' (as in Paschal), which is ultimately a cognate of the Hebrew Pesah.

In the long run, BA is talking nonsense as are you.

Yes I'm well aware that most other countries have a term that relates to passion - and that has a clear Christian derivation, but we don't - we call the festival Easter and however you slice it, that is not derived from any Christian origin but from a pagan spring deity.

[Rhiannon]

But in the UK we call it Easter, not passion or any other such name which has a Christian connotations. So if you call it Easter, then to avoid claims of hypocrisy on your part (not mine remember as I'm relaxed about how people celebrate) then it is a pagan celebration, not a Christian one. So if non Christians are hypocrites for celebrating Christmas then non-pagans are just as hypocritical for celebrating Easter.

But I reiterate again - I don't care - celebrate as you wish - all these festivals are multifaceted, incorporating all sorts of religious and cultural influences, and also they evolve over time.

Actually, PD, Easter is not a pagan celebration and never has been.  Eastrun was/is the pagan festival, and whilst I accept that the term 'Easter' is related to that name and the goddess it was in celebration of, 'Easter' as such is a Christianised form of the word.  Furthermore, that is only an Anglo-Germanic link.  Many other European languages have terms that derive from the Latin 'pasche' (as in Paschal), which is ultimately a cognate of the Hebrew Pesah.

In the long run, BA is talking nonsense as are you.

The only source for a goddess called Eostre is Bede. It's not that reliable.

Eostre or Ostara is dated to the equinox. Easter is dated by the moon phases and often falls on a different day.

[Gordon]

But in the UK we call it Easter, not passion or any other such name which has a Christian connotations. So if you call it Easter, then to avoid claims of hypocrisy on your part (not mine remember as I'm relaxed about how people celebrate) then it is a pagan celebration, not a Christian one. So if non Christians are hypocrites for celebrating Christmas then non-pagans are just as hypocritical for celebrating Easter.

But I reiterate again - I don't care - celebrate as you wish - all these festivals are multifaceted, incorporating all sorts of religious and cultural influences, and also they evolve over time.

Actually, PD, Easter is not a pagan celebration and never has been.  Eastrun was/is the pagan festival, and whilst I accept that the term 'Easter' is related to that name and the goddess it was in celebration of, 'Easter' as such is a Christianised form of the word.  Furthermore, that is only an Anglo-Germanic link.  Many other European languages have terms that derive from the Latin 'pasche' (as in Paschal), which is ultimately a cognate of the Hebrew Pesah.

In the long run, BA is talking nonsense as are you.

Yes I'm well aware that most other countries have a term that relates to passion - and that has a clear Christian derivation, but we don't - we call the festival Easter and however you slice it, that is not derived from any Christian origin but from a pagan spring deity.

Yep - although I'm by no means conversant with the detail of the NT I'm fairly sure that rabbits don't feature prominently.

[BashfulAnthony]

Whether they were or not, the point is, do atheists adhere to these now generally accepted Christian days?  If so, they are hypocrites.  "Christianity" requires a capital letter, as it is a proper noun.

So we're not allowed to celebrate Christmas because we're not Christians, but we're not allowed to drop Christmas because the Christians will cry about it - see the recent media articles about Starbucks' choice of cups for the holiday season.

Christmas is a cultural event that has moved beyond the purely religious institution it may have once been, just as it has moved beyond the pagan festival it was before the Christians hijacked it.

Like marriage, it was there before Christians and we won't be dictated to about how we treat these civil institutions.

O.

O.

Abject nonsense.  Christmas is a Christian Festival now, and you hypocrites are simply clutching at straws to try and justify indulging in things Christmassy.  Have the courage of your "convictions!"

In which case Easter is a pagan festival and you are a hypocrite for celebrating it in any other manner than a pagan one.

More to the point, what day is it? Surely not Monday, named by pagans after the moon? Surely, BA, you've good, decent Christian names of the days of the week? You wouldn't be so hypocritical as to casually adopt the pagan names for days of the week when you're such an upstanding Christian, would you?

O.

"Borrowing" names is not hypocritical  -  fool.

[BashfulAnthony]

Abject nonsense.  Christmas is a Christian Festival now, and you hypocrites are simply clutching at straws to try and justify indulging in things Christmassy.  Have the courage of your "convictions!"

I am indulging in Christmassy things, yes - trees (pagan), Yule logs (pagan), two weeks at Disney in Florida (capitalist?), ignoring the Queen's Speech (post-modernist?), eating well and spending time with my family. Those are Christmassy things, they aren't explicitly Christian things - Christmas has moved way, way beyond fairy tales about magic babies being born in stables.

O....

Spin it how you like:  you are a hypocrite!

[Rhiannon]

Actually the origins of the Easter bunny is a bit creepy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Bunny

But if you want to go back further as to why somebody put hares and eggs together in the first place, there's a suggestion that people used to think hares laid eggs because their forms resemble nests and people mistook the eggs of ground nesting birds for hares' eggs. Not sure how plausible that is for people living so close to the land. 

[BashfulAnthony]

Whether they were or not, the point is, do atheists adhere to these now generally accepted Christian days?  If so, they are hypocrites.  "Christianity" requires a capital letter, as it is a proper noun.

So we're not allowed to celebrate Christmas because we're not Christians, but we're not allowed to drop Christmas because the Christians will cry about it - see the recent media articles about Starbucks' choice of cups for the holiday season.

Christmas is a cultural event that has moved beyond the purely religious institution it may have once been, just as it has moved beyond the pagan festival it was before the Christians hijacked it.

Like marriage, it was there before Christians and we won't be dictated to about how we treat these civil institutions.

O.

O.

Try as hard as you like, in your little way, Christmas is  Christian Festival, and you heathens cannot resist joining in because of you self-indulgance, and fear of looking ridiculous by admitting to your strange ways to others.  That's the truth of it.

[Owlswing]

I gather that in the olden days the Quakers used to call the days of the week First Day, Second Day etc. to avoid the use of pagan names.

They knew how to walk the walk and not be hypocrites, mind

And I wonder how many of the 'original' Pagans borrowed names and terminology from their predecessors?  How many atheists 'hypocritically' borrow terminology from their religious predecessors?  Remember that terminology is not inherently 'pagan' or 'religious' or even 'atheist'.  It is cultural.

But we're not the ones (or at least I am not) who are claiming some kind of monopoly on a festival based on the origin of its name.

It isn't hypocrisy to celebrate Christmas as a mid-winter festival and also Easter as a spring festival (and also to be perfectly happy for others to celebrate both as Christian festivals). It is however hypocrisy to claim a monopoly on Christmas (i.e. that it must be a Christian festival) due to the origin of its name, but then happily celebrate Easter as a Christian festival, conveniently ignoring the origin of its name.

There is some controversy among pagans with regard to Easter; there is only one record of a goddess Eostre or Ostara and that is by the Venerable Bede.

The eggs and rabbits are fertility symbols, relating to the spring season, eggs possibly from Eostre or Ostara and the root of Oestogen. This is why many pagan eschew the name Ostara for this festival and prefer to call it the Spring Equinox.

Calling it Easter comes from the same writing by Bede.

[BashfulAnthony]

Whether they were or not, the point is, do atheists adhere to these now generally accepted Christian days?  If so, they are hypocrites.  "Christianity" requires a capital letter, as it is a proper noun.

So we're not allowed to celebrate Christmas because we're not Christians, but we're not allowed to drop Christmas because the Christians will cry about it - see the recent media articles about Starbucks' choice of cups for the holiday season.

Christmas is a cultural event that has moved beyond the purely religious institution it may have once been, just as it has moved beyond the pagan festival it was before the Christians hijacked it.

Like marriage, it was there before Christians and we won't be dictated to about how we treat these civil institutions.

O.

O.

I wonder how BA would express his displeasure at those arguing against christianity if the word "hypocrite" was banned? He would be lost for words!

He is also a gutless coward   - makes an accusation against me and then refuses to answer my rebuttal.

How come you keep posting to and about me, when you have said, on at least two occasions, that you will not post to me again?  Are you so weak-willed?

[ippy]

Heya iipy chops,

This is special just for you. Merry Christmas!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AUE4ZrMItI

Ta very much Woody, very seasonal, I've got a sympathetic tree up in the loft ready for the Isaac Newton's birthday celebrations on the 25-12 this year I'm looking forward to that, hope you have a good time all of the time, I wish you well.

ippy

So, no Christmas cards, presents for the family and all the kiddies; no mention of anything to do with the Christian festival, or participation in it?  No visits to such things as Nativities?  A reminder to tell all friends, family,etc, not to send you cards or anything to do with Christmas?  Could it just be that you are a hypocrite, and a pretty big one?

Baaah, christmas is humbug you should know that, as I said I've got a sympathetic tree that comes each year with a little model of Isaac on top and then pages of Philosophiae Naturilis principa mathematica spaced out all over, well at least Isaac did exist and did something usefull while he was here.

The paper chains with all of that maths printed all over them, time spent winding the astrolabe by candlelight, worshiping his ability to guide all of those spacial bits of Objet d'art.

You obviously haven't lived B A.

ippy

[Owlswing]

Whether they were or not, the point is, do atheists adhere to these now generally accepted Christian days?  If so, they are hypocrites.  "Christianity" requires a capital letter, as it is a proper noun.

So we're not allowed to celebrate Christmas because we're not Christians, but we're not allowed to drop Christmas because the Christians will cry about it - see the recent media articles about Starbucks' choice of cups for the holiday season.

Christmas is a cultural event that has moved beyond the purely religious institution it may have once been, just as it has moved beyond the pagan festival it was before the Christians hijacked it.

Like marriage, it was there before Christians and we won't be dictated to about how we treat these civil institutions.

O.

O.

I wonder how BA would express his displeasure at those arguing against christianity if the word "hypocrite" was banned? He would be lost for words!

He is also a gutless coward   - makes an accusation against me and then refuses to answer my rebuttal.

How come you keep posting to and about me, when you have said, on at least two occasions, that you will not post to me again?  Are you so weak-willed?

No I am not weak-willed - but you seem to think that I am going to allow you you LIE aboiut me with impunity!

[BashfulAnthony]

Heya iipy chops,

This is special just for you. Merry Christmas!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AUE4ZrMItI

Ta very much Woody, very seasonal, I've got a sympathetic tree up in the loft ready for the Isaac Newton's birthday celebrations on the 25-12 this year I'm looking forward to that, hope you have a good time all of the time, I wish you well.

ippy

So, no Christmas cards, presents for the family and all the kiddies; no mention of anything to do with the Christian festival, or participation in it?  No visits to such things as Nativities?  A reminder to tell all friends, family,etc, not to send you cards or anything to do with Christmas?  Could it just be that you are a hypocrite, and a pretty big one?

Baaah, christmas is humbug you should know that, as I said I've got a sympathetic tree that comes each year with a little model of Isaac on top and then pages of Philosophiae Naturilis principa mathematica spaced out all over, well at least Isaac did exist and did something usefull while he was here.

The paper chains with all of that maths printed all over them, time spent winding the astrolabe by candlelight, worshiping his ability to guide all of those spacial bits of Objet d'art.

You obviously haven't lived B A.

ippy

I celebrate Christmas as it should be, and that's living in my book. I join in to the other aspects in a token manner, because of my family.

[Shaker]

Try as hard as you like, in your little way, Christmas is  Christian Festival, and you heathens cannot resist joining in because of you self-indulgance, and fear of looking ridiculous by admitting to your strange ways to others.  That's the truth of it.

It's painfully obvious that what's really grinding your gears is that for the overwhelming majority of people here and elsewhere, Christmas has absolutely zero to do with Christianity or indeed any other religion. Nothing whatever. It's funny that living in a large city as you do (and as I do, only I can see it) you can't see that for businesses Christmas is not so much a as the commercial opportunity of the year, far and away above and beyond anything and everything else, whereas for private individuals Christmas is a secular public holiday which spells time off work, time spent with the family, the sharing of gifts and over-indulgence in food and alcohol. Merriment in general, to put it at its simplest.

Since there are serial misrepresenters on this forum (such as Hope, principally), for the avoidance of any confusion let's be absolutely clear about what I'm saying and not saying. I'm not saying that nobody celebrates Christmas as a religious, specifically Christian festival. Some do. I'm not saying that people don't go to Midnight Mass who may never darken the doors of a church at any other time of the year. Some do. I'm not saying that churches which are almost entirely empty the rest of the year are at their busiest at Christmas. They are.

What I am saying is that these people are in a small minority; however much you may gnash your gums over it, the fact remains - and you can't deny this - that for the vast majority Christmas involves a massive shop at one of our major retailers, the buying of a great deal of special food and drink, the decoration of the house, the buying of gifts, a blow-out lunch, falling asleep semi-pissed in front of the telly on Christmas afternoon, a Boxing Day hangover, all carried out without a first let alone a second thought of Jesus, Allah, Cernunnos, Wotan or Persephone.

Don't even bother trying to deny this; you know that it's the case as well as the rest of us.

P.S. While there are several pagans on the forum, to my knowledge there are no heathens.

[BashfulAnthony]

Try as hard as you like, in your little way, Christmas is  Christian Festival, and you heathens cannot resist joining in because of you self-indulgance, and fear of looking ridiculous by admitting to your strange ways to others.  That's the truth of it.

It's painfully obvious that what's really grinding your gears is that for the overwhelming majority of people here and elsewhere, Christmas has absolutely zero to do with Christianity or indeed any other religion. Nothing whatever. It's funny that living in a large city as you do (and as I do, only I can see it) you can't see that for businesses Christmas is not so much as the commercial opportunity of the year, whereas for private individuals, Christmas is a secular public holiday which spells time off work, time spent with the family, the sharing of gifts and over-indulgence in food and alcohol.

Since there are serial misrepresenters on this forum (such as Hope, principally), for the avoidance of any confusion let's be absolutely clear about what I'm saying and not saying. I'm not saying that nobody celebrates Christmas as a religious, specifically Christian festival. Plenty do. I'm not saying that people don't go to Midnight Mass who may never darken the doors of a church at any other time of the year. Some do. I'm not saying that churches which are almost entirely empty the rest of the year are at their busiest at Christmas. They are.

What I am saying is that these people are in a small minority; however much you may gnash your gums over it, the fact remains - and you can't deny this - that for the vast majority Christmas involves a massive shop at one of our major retailers, the buying of a great deal of special food and drink, the decoration of the house, the buying of gifts, a blow-out lunch, falling asleep semi-pissed in front of the telly on Christmas afternoon, a Boxing Day hangover, all carried out without a first let alone a second thought of Jesus, Allah, Cernunnos, Wotan or Persephone.

Don't even bother trying to deny this; you know that it's the case as well as the rest of us.

P.S. While there are several pagans on the forum, to my knowledge there are no heathens.

I don't deny all that verbosity about how people "celebrate" Christmas.  The point I am trying to make is that the atheists pay lip service to the Christian aspects, cards, nativities, Christmas presents, etc, because they haven't the guts to admit to all their friends and family that they are godless.

[ippy]

Heya iipy chops,

This is special just for you. Merry Christmas!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AUE4ZrMItI

Ta very much Woody, very seasonal, I've got a sympathetic tree up in the loft ready for the Isaac Newton's birthday celebrations on the 25-12 this year I'm looking forward to that, hope you have a good time all of the time, I wish you well.

ippy

Not a Christmas tree in our home - a Yule log, yes.

My daughters and I split things along religious lines.

Yule cards and presents for the pagans on December 21 and Christmas presents and cards for those of that persuasion on December 25 and, strange thought it may seem considering soem of the comments by the Christians on this Forum, our Christian friends find this perfectly acceptable.

So you ignore Newton?

ippy

[Shaker]

I don't deny all that verbosity about how people "celebrate" Christmas. The point I am trying to make is that the atheists pay lip service to the Christian aspects, cards, nativities, Christmas presents, etc, because they haven't the guts to admit to all their friends and family that they are godless.

Pretty sure that the families and friends of the atheists here are perfectly well aware of their godless status; after all, they're likely to be so themselves.

[BashfulAnthony]

Heya iipy chops,

This is special just for you. Merry Christmas!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AUE4ZrMItI

Ta very much Woody, very seasonal, I've got a sympathetic tree up in the loft ready for the Isaac Newton's birthday celebrations on the 25-12 this year I'm looking forward to that, hope you have a good time all of the time, I wish you well.

ippy

Not a Christmas tree in our home - a Yule log, yes.

My daughters and I split things along religious lines.

Yule cards and presents for the pagans on December 21 and Christmas presents and cards for those of that persuasion on December 25 and, strange thought it may seem considering soem of the comments by the Christians on this Forum, our Christian friends find this perfectly acceptable.

So you ignore Newton?

ippy

You mean that good, religious, fellow?

[Shaker]

You mean that good, religious, fellow?

You should read a biography of him, or better still, several biographies of him. While there's no doubt that he was religious, he was also in that regard an utter fruitloop crank. He was an alchemist, after all.

And you clearly have a different definition of 'good' to mine.

[BashfulAnthony]

You mean that good, religious, fellow?

You should read a biography of him, or better still, several biographies of him. While there's no doubt that he was religious, he was also in that regard an utter fruitloop crank. He was an alchemist, after all.

And you clearly have a different definition of 'good' to mine.

What do you mean by "fruitloop?"  He must have been some fruitloop, to arrive at the genius theories he managed!

[Shaker]

What do you mean by "fruitloop?"

I mean his belief in alchemy.

I mean the amount of time he spent scouring the Bible because he held to numerological beliefs which led him to think that the Bible contained hidden coded messages which only he could decipher.

He must have been some fruitloop, to arrive at the genius theories he managed!

It's a testament yet again to the incredible power of compartmentalisation some people have.

[Gordon]

I don't deny all that verbosity about how people "celebrate" Christmas. The point I am trying to make is that the atheists pay lip service to the Christian aspects, cards, nativities, Christmas presents, etc, because they haven't the guts to admit to all their friends and family that they are godless.

Pretty sure that the families and friends of the atheists here are perfectly well aware of their godless status; after all, they're likely to be so themselves.

I have friend who religiously sends out 'Happy Saturnalia' cards every year - these days the mid-winter holiday is whatever you want it to be for you, which is fine by me.