Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?

[Leonard James]

Because otherwise life can seem pointless, and some people find that hard to accept.

Well, imo life is nothing more than a biochemical process that we are a tiny part of. We are simply a form of that process that has evolved a brain that asks pointless questions. The universe was here long before life appeared and will no doubt continue long after it becomes extinct.

For the brief moment that we are here we just make what sense of it we can.

[Rhiannon]

I think life is to be lived in the moment. What is happening now? The past and future are just dreams and trying to make sense beyond me, now, drinking peppermint tea and typing on my phone is a waste of time.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sometimes talking of answers seems a bit premature to me. It's not clear that we can frame sensible questions.

Well, "How did the universe get here?" seems a perfectly sensible question to me. Equally sensible is the answer "We don't know yet."

What is NOT sensible is to invent gods to explain it.

Agreed, I wasn't clear here. I don't mean that there are no questions that can be asked but that sometimes the 'answers' that are sought seem to be from questions that we struggle to express. In the example above there is an assumption about naturalism since that is how we invetsigate it and is not really covering the question that might be framed as 'Why is the universe here?' where there is an assumption of purpose.

I think that a lot of the 'answers' we seek, are not to coherent questions but inchoate feelings that revolve around emotional needs to have a larger why, a coherent pupose, to break the yawning gap between us and the noumenal

Why on earth should there be a "purpose" to an agglomeration of matter?

where does the idea of purpose come from and should we now discard it.....at the risk of ending motivation for anything.

[jeremyp]

we have both male and female - we are not patriarchal and are of the view that without both male and female there is no life in the higher forms of life upon this planet. I am not sure what the highest form of life that can procreate without both sexes is but it is not very high on the ladder, of that I AM sure.

There's a belief that probably isn't true. The concept that some forms of life are "higher" than others is highly questionable. As humans we have a prejudiced point of view. However, on many objective criteria we lose. E. coli is far more successful than human kind in numerical terms and will probably outlast us.

Where is the rror of pagan belief in having deities of bath sexes?

The error I was referring to is the one of assuming that there are "higher forms of life".

However, the error in believing in deities of both, one or no sex is that no such deities appear to exist. If there are no gods, there are no male gods or female gods, by definition.

I'm pretty confident that there are no gods. If there is a god, sex is probably a meaningless property when applied to it.

[jeremyp]

I am not sure the concept of absolute proof is rational.

It is in maths, but is not rational when applied to any phenomenon of the real World.

[jeremyp]

We do not "come back from the dead"!

We are re-born! It is an entirely different thing - we do not come back as new version of ourselves, it is the spirit within us that returns.

There's another in error pagan belief.

Magic

And another.

[torridon]

If I seek anything it is a sense of connection. This woman certainly isn't an island but IME people are shit at connectedness - myself included - and religion can't be relied upon either. What I can rely on is the ground beneath me, the sky above me, clouds, trees, stars. They are ever with me.

That kind of suggests you might have underlying trust issues.  Humans are tricksy, whereas trees and rocks are not.  Maybe I can sympathise with that, but I never experience anything 'spooky' in Nature.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Why on earth should there be a "purpose" to an agglomeration of matter?

But WHY.

Gonnagle.

[Udayana]

We do not "come back from the dead"!

We are re-born! It is an entirely different thing - we do not come back as new version of ourselves, it is the spirit within us that returns.

There's another in error pagan belief.

Magic

And another.

Is it an "error" or more like an assumption, an axiom, around which symbolism etc is built. Owlswing has already said it is "faith" based, not something demonstrable or applying to what we normally view as the "real" world.

A sort of emotional maths, not necessarily rational.

[Rhiannon]

If I seek anything it is a sense of connection. This woman certainly isn't an island but IME people are shit at connectedness - myself included - and religion can't be relied upon either. What I can rely on is the ground beneath me, the sky above me, clouds, trees, stars. They are ever with me.

That kind of suggests you might have underlying trust issues.  Humans are tricksy, whereas trees and rocks are not.  Maybe I can sympathise with that, but I never experience anything 'spooky' in Nature.

I've been too trusting and put my faith in some seriously fucked up people.

But maybe we all are.

Trees and rocks are far less complicated. Not spooky, just - here.

[Owlswing]

We do not "come back from the dead"!

We are re-born! It is an entirely different thing - we do not come back as new version of ourselves, it is the spirit within us that returns.

There's another in error pagan belief.

Magic

And another.

Is it an "error" or more like an assumption, an axiom, around which symbolism etc is built. Owlswing has already said it is "faith" based, not something demonstrable or applying to what we normally view as the "real" world.

A sort of emotional maths, not necessarily rational.

Udayana

JeremyP appears to be fighting not the idea of deity, male, female, neutral, whatever or whatever number, but the idea of belief it self.

Yet he rejects the idea that his rejection of the deity is itself a belief.

But as has been said before and not only by me - there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Jeremy is as much of a "my way or the highway as Sassy or Hope or BA, but he will, no doubt, consider this to be a personal insult. Tough, I find his reasons for rejecting my beliefs and my explanations for holding to be equally insulting.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not sure the concept of absolute proof is rational.

It is in maths, but is not rational when applied to any phenomenon of the real World.

I'm not sure even there. It seems to me that it still needs an assumption at the start that what works is universally true. Note I'm not really bothered either way and while I have occasionally examined the idea, I haven't spent much time on the 'proof' of maths, but I am uneasy with the idea that it can defeat the issue of hard solipsism.

[Nearly Sane]

As I noted, I think that asking why more an expression of the 'long dark teatime of the soul'. It's not a question more a howl of loneliness.

[Nearly Sane]

If I seek anything it is a sense of connection. This woman certainly isn't an island but IME people are shit at connectedness - myself included - and religion can't be relied upon either. What I can rely on is the ground beneath me, the sky above me, clouds, trees, stars. They are ever with me.

I mentioned hard solipsism in a different context on this thread, and I think it is that that haunts or lack of connectedness, but worse even than that is that we are not even really connected with ourselves. The past me dissolves away and the future me is a fiction. The current me is not even a name I can call myself but a crash of programs and bouillabaisse of emotion.

I can hear on every note of Mozart, the straining to breach the gap from the noumenal, the cry of solitude and it echoes the darkness of 4am in a strange bed in a strange land when memories feel like knives, and hope is a thuggish master.

[Leonard James]

where does the idea of purpose come from and should we now discard it.....at the risk of ending motivation for anything.

The idea came from our enquiring minds, and no, we don't discard it for it has much meaning as far as human activity is concerned. We just need to apply it to those activities, and not seek a "purpose" where there is no need for it.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Why on earth should there be a "purpose" to an agglomeration of matter?

But WHY.

Gonnagle.

Why what, Gonners? 

[jeremyp]

JeremyP appears to be fighting not the idea of deity, male, female, neutral, whatever or whatever number, but the idea of belief it self.

Yet he rejects the idea that his rejection of the deity is itself a belief.

I have an opinion that is based on evidence, not a faith based belief.

But as has been said before and not only by me - there are none so blind as those who will not see.

And you are so blind that you cannot see that your pagan beliefs are nothing more than a fantasy. You see, that little saying works both ways, or rather, it works neither way. Coming up with bullshit homilies like that does nothing to further debate and only antagonises your opponent.

Jeremy is as much of a "my way or the highway as Sassy or Hope or BA"

This is completely untrue. I have no problem with you believing your beliefs. However, if you make a thread called "Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?" you are going to get people like me telling you which of your beliefs are in error.

Tough, I find his reasons for rejecting my beliefs and my explanations for holding to be equally insulting.

When I think about it, this whole thread is a shitty insult to all of the posters that disagree with you on the subject of paganism. You did not create it in good faith, but rather, it seems, as a trap to tell people that engage with you that we are blind and so that you can get all righteously angry at the inevitable imagined insults.

If you really want insulting, I can do insulting...

Let's be honest, the modern version of paganism has nothing much to do with the old religions from which it purports to stem. Thanks to the efforts of the Romans and Christians, we know next to nothing about those religions. Modern paganism is merely a chocolate box version of real paganism as imagined by the Victorians, leavened with a bit of new age hippy culture and touches of Fotherington-Thomas.

Your gods aren't real, your magic isn't real. You are just play acting a fantasy.

Is that insulting enough for you? Is that what you wanted? If all you really wanted was a "True For Me" wankfest with all the other pagans here, perhaps you should have post in FSA.

[Leonard James]

 

Go, Jeremy, go!

[jeremyp]

I am not sure the concept of absolute proof is rational.

It is in maths, but is not rational when applied to any phenomenon of the real World.

I'm not sure even there. It seems to me that it still needs an assumption at the start that what works is universally true.

That's absolutely true (ahem). In mathematics, we start with some axioms that are "self evidently true" although frequently they aren't really self evident and then we see what follows from them. For example, all of Euclidean geometry is built on the assumption of five initial statements. They don't have to be true in any real World sense. All theorems in Euclidian geometry are shorthand for a syllogism. For example

    In a right triangle, the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides

is short for

    If { the five Euclidean postulates are true } then in a right triangle, the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides

Mathematical theorems are ultimately a set of tautologies. As such, they are trivially absolute truths - unless you want to deny the validity of the process of deduction.

[Nearly Sane]

In which case it doesn't amount to absolute proof

[torridon]

I mentioned hard solipsism in a different context on this thread, and I think it is that that haunts or lack of connectedness, but worse even than that is that we are not even really connected with ourselves. The past me dissolves away and the future me is a fiction. The current me is not even a name I can call myself but a crash of programs and bouillabaisse of emotion.

I can hear on every note of Mozart, the straining to breach the gap from the noumenal, the cry of solitude and it echoes the darkness of 4am in a strange bed in a strange land when memories feel like knives, and hope is a thuggish master.

<applause>

[Owlswing]

JeremyP appears to be fighting not the idea of deity, male, female, neutral, whatever or whatever number, but the idea of belief it self.

Yet he rejects the idea that his rejection of the deity is itself a belief.

I have an opinion that is based on evidence, not a faith based belief.

But as has been said before and not only by me - there are none so blind as those who will not see.

And you are so blind that you cannot see that your pagan beliefs are nothing more than a fantasy. You see, that little saying works both ways, or rather, it works neither way. Coming up with bullshit homilies like that does nothing to further debate and only antagonises your opponent.

Jeremy is as much of a "my way or the highway as Sassy or Hope or BA"

This is completely untrue. I have no problem with you believing your beliefs. However, if you make a thread called "Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?" you are going to get people like me telling you which of your beliefs are in error.

Tough, I find his reasons for rejecting my beliefs and my explanations for holding to be equally insulting.

When I think about it, this whole thread is a shitty insult to all of the posters that disagree with you on the subject of paganism. You did not create it in good faith, but rather, it seems, as a trap to tell people that engage with you that we are blind and so that you can get all righteously angry at the inevitable imagined insults.

If you really want insulting, I can do insulting...

Let's be honest, the modern version of paganism has nothing much to do with the old religions from which it purports to stem. Thanks to the efforts of the Romans and Christians, we know next to nothing about those religions. Modern paganism is merely a chocolate box version of real paganism as imagined by the Victorians, leavened with a bit of new age hippy culture and touches of Fotherington-Thomas.

Your gods aren't real, your magic isn't real. You are just play acting a fantasy.

Is that insulting enough for you? Is that what you wanted? If all you really wanted was a "True For Me" wankfest with all the other pagans here, perhaps you should have post in FSA.

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

Let's be honest, the modern version of paganism has nothing much to do with the old religions from which it purports to stem. Thanks to the efforts of the Romans and Christians, we know next to nothing about those religions. Modern paganism is merely a chocolate box version of real paganism as imagined by the Victorians, leavened with a bit of new age hippy culture and touches of Fotherington-Thomas.

You clearly have no idea of what "the modern version of paganism" is.

It was created, re-discovered, re-invented (take your choice), by a man named Gerald B Gardner, who created Wicca under the influence of Margaret A Murray's now discredited theory that the "witches" of the 14th to 17th centuries who were the target of the Inquisition and others during the witch-craze were the survivors of an underground pagan religiomn that had existed since pre-Christian times.

He, Alex and Maxine Sanders, popularised his ideas during the 50's and 60's after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts.

Over the years his claims were debunked but he had sparked an interest in both paganism and the Craft.

My deities may well be not real any more than the gods of every other religion in the world may be.

As it happens your rant above tells me one thing loud and clear - I hit a nerve!

[Dicky Underpants]

If I seek anything it is a sense of connection. This woman certainly isn't an island but IME people are shit at connectedness - myself included - and religion can't be relied upon either. What I can rely on is the ground beneath me, the sky above me, clouds, trees, stars. They are ever with me.

I mentioned hard solipsism in a different context on this thread, and I think it is that that haunts or lack of connectedness, but worse even than that is that we are not even really connected with ourselves. The past me dissolves away and the future me is a fiction. The current me is not even a name I can call myself but a crash of programs and bouillabaisse of emotion.

I can hear on every note of Mozart, the straining to breach the gap from the noumenal, the cry of solitude and it echoes the darkness of 4am in a strange bed in a strange land when memories feel like knives, and hope is a thuggish master.

Gadzooks and 'pon my word, mi'lud, that strikes quite a few chords. Especially the Mozart ones.

[Owlswing]

If all you really wanted was a "True For Me" wankfest with all the other pagans here, perhaps you should have post in FSA.

Only those with no-one to interact with need take part in a wankfest - thankfully I have a large a varied circle of friends of both sexes which preclude the necessity for any participation in such self absorbed pasttimes.

There is, so far as I am aware, only one other pagan here, Rhiannon, and for you to suggest such an activity to her is way way past insulting.

[Dicky Underpants]

You clearly have no idea of what "the modern version of paganism" is.

It was created, re-discovered, re-invented (take your choice), by a man named Gerald B Gardner, who created Wicca under the influence of Margaret A Murray's now discredited theory that the "witches" of the 14th to 17th centuries who were the target of the Inquisition and others during the witch-craze were the survivors of an underground pagan religiomn that had existed since pre-Christian times.

He, Alex and Maxine Sanders, popularised his ideas during the 50's and 60's after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts.

Over the years his claims were debunked but he had sparked an interest in both paganism and the Craft.

My deities may well be not real any more than the gods of every other religion in the world may be.

As it happens your rant above tells me one thing loud and clear - I hit a nerve!

Whether Jeremy has any idea about the modern version of paganism - what about his assertion that we know (and can know) practically nothing about the ancient religions from which it is supposed to derive? I suppose the Christians did do a pretty good job in eradicating many strands of pagan belief and practice in Europe and many other parts of the world (the Spanish had almost miraculous success in wiping out Central and South American native beliefs, Carlos Castaneda's sham fabrications notwithstanding).

However, regarding how much can legitimately be traced to genuine historical origins - have you any thoughts on Robert Graves' "The White Goddess"? (Graves' book attempts to trace what he calls 'lunar knowledge' back to an ancient 'tree' alphabet, of which we certainly have a number of examples). I picked up a copy the other day - it's not my usual kind of reading these days, having abandoned any belief in the 'spiritual', whether it be of pagan, christian, buddhist or any other religious origin. I meant to read Graves' book decades ago when I first learned of it from Colin Wilson's 'The Occult', but never got round to it (I can hear Jeremy and Leonard shouting "Damn good thing you didn't" )
However, if anyone is familiar with Graves' book, and think it worth a look, if only from a scholarly point of view, then I might get round to reading it.