Author Topic: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?  (Read 34438 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2015, 04:53:24 PM »

You clearly have no idea of what "the modern version of paganism" is.


I'm bored of this tactic. This is no different to the christians claiming that all arguments against Christianity are wrong because it's "not a Christianity I recognise".

Quote
It was created, re-discovered, re-invented (take your choice), by a man named Gerald B Gardner, who created Wicca under the influence of Margaret A Murray's now discredited theory that the "witches" of the 14th to 17th centuries who were the target of the Inquisition and others during the witch-craze were the survivors of an underground pagan religiomn that had existed since pre-Christian times.
You're claiming that your faith is based on a discredited theory of witchcraft?

Quote
As it happens your rant above tells me one thing loud and clear - I hit a nerve!
Only because by your behaviour in seemingly creating this thread just so as you can pretend that you are "misunderstood" and therefore all errors are not errors and aren't the rest of us bad for criticising an alleged straw man version of your religion.

Generally, I have no issues with pagans of the nature of the issues I have with Christians. Christians seem to have the attitude of (exaggerated for effect) "I'm right, you're wrong. Become a Christian or be labelled evil. Oh, and don't go shopping on Sundays". Pagans generally say "this is true for me, if you don't agree, fine". As a rule, if people don't try to shove their religious beliefs up my nose, I don't go round pointing out the many ways in which their religion makes no sense. However, on this thread you have specifically invited me to tell you why your religious beliefs are wrong. What did you expect you to write?

I'm pissed off only because you didn't engage me in good faith. You didn't address my points, instead you told me I was blind and insulting. If you call that touching a nerve, then yes, you touched a nerve.
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jeremyp

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2015, 05:01:23 PM »

Only those with no-one to interact with need take part in a wankfest

Another version of the phrase would be "circle jerk". I suggest you look it up, but not at work. IT's an idiom meaning you all get together to do something that is ultimately pointless. It doesn't mean you actually get together and literally masturbate.

It's meant to be insulting, by the way, that was the point. If you're going to shut down the conversation by claiming insult, it might as well be because I've actually insulted you.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2015, 05:54:06 PM »
Sorry, Jeremy, no wankfest on my part for you to snigger at. I've given up on 'true for me'. 'Works for me' is about as good as it gets, and even that slips through my fingers.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #103 on: October 28, 2015, 06:13:09 PM »
I liked The White Goddess; though I am still not at all sure what was on about at times. It's more about response to myth by poetic means, and how myth is poetic at base than a study. It's easier reading than either The Golden Bough or The Hero With a Thousand Faces.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #104 on: October 28, 2015, 08:11:19 PM »
If I seek anything it is a sense of connection. This woman certainly isn't an island but IME people are shit at connectedness - myself included - and religion can't be relied upon either. What I can rely on is the ground beneath me, the sky above me, clouds, trees, stars. They are ever with me.

I mentioned hard solipsism in a different context on this thread, and I think it is that that haunts or lack of connectedness, but worse even than that is that we are not even really connected with ourselves. The past me dissolves away and the future me is a fiction. The current me is not even a name I can call myself but a crash of programs and bouillabaisse of emotion.

I can hear on every note of Mozart, the straining to breach the gap from the noumenal, the cry of solitude and it echoes the darkness of 4am in a strange bed in a strange land when memories feel like knives, and hope is a thuggish master.

For a long time I thought I knew who I was because other people told me. Realising they are wrong is all very well but I've nothing to replace it with.

I think I know the rocks, earth, stone, trees, but I'm leaving even them. I can't be relied on, can I?

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2015, 08:30:32 PM »
Your post made me think of this, Rhiannon. It's a song I reach for


http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=IoPTCQazeIY

Rhiannon

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2015, 09:03:37 PM »
Thank you, NS.

I have no intention of turning back, but my greatest fear is that no doors appear to be opening.

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2015, 09:30:31 PM »
To quote The Hotel New Hampshire (which if you haven't read, worth doing) - keep passing the open windows.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2015, 10:29:35 PM »
Speaking of doors, maybe it's just a case of hanging on in there.

http://allpoetry.com/Love-After-Love

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2015, 10:32:52 PM »
That is beautiful. Thank you

Rhiannon

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2015, 10:46:56 PM »
My pleasure.  :)

Owlswing

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #111 on: October 28, 2015, 11:51:48 PM »

You clearly have no idea of what "the modern version of paganism" is.

It was created, re-discovered, re-invented (take your choice), by a man named Gerald B Gardner, who created Wicca under the influence of Margaret A Murray's now discredited theory that the "witches" of the 14th to 17th centuries who were the target of the Inquisition and others during the witch-craze were the survivors of an underground pagan religiomn that had existed since pre-Christian times.

He, Alex and Maxine Sanders, popularised his ideas during the 50's and 60's after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts.

Over the years his claims were debunked but he had sparked an interest in both paganism and the Craft.

My deities may well be not real any more than the gods of every other religion in the world may be.

As it happens your rant above tells me one thing loud and clear - I hit a nerve!

Whether Jeremy has any idea about the modern version of paganism - what about his assertion that we know (and can know) practically nothing about the ancient religions from which it is supposed to derive? I suppose the Christians did do a pretty good job in eradicating many strands of pagan belief and practice in Europe and many other parts of the world (the Spanish had almost miraculous success in wiping out Central and South American native beliefs, Carlos Castaneda's sham fabrications notwithstanding).

However, regarding how much can legitimately be traced to genuine historical origins - have you any thoughts on Robert Graves' "The White Goddess"? (Graves' book attempts to trace what he calls 'lunar knowledge' back to an ancient 'tree' alphabet, of which we certainly have a number of examples). I picked up a copy the other day - it's not my usual kind of reading these days, having abandoned any belief in the 'spiritual', whether it be of pagan, christian, buddhist or any other religious origin. I meant to read Graves' book decades ago when I first learned of it from Colin Wilson's 'The Occult', but never got round to it (I can hear Jeremy and Leonard shouting "Damn good thing you didn't" :) )
However, if anyone is familiar with Graves' book, and think it worth a look, if only from a scholarly point of view, then I might get round to reading it.

Robert Graves was another disciple of Margaret A Murray. She was a highly respected Egyptologist and, when WW1 made excavations in Egypt more of less impossible, she transferred her interest to Sir James George Frazer's (a hero of hers) area of expertise, anthropology (see The Golden Bough) and began to formulate her theory that not only were the witches persecuted during the witch-hunts of the 14th to 17th centuries the followers of a Europe-wide underground Devil worshipping cult that had existed ever since the coming of Christianinty, but was, in 1921, still flourishing underground.

She published The Witch Cult in Western Europe that proclaimed this theory.

There was however a huge flaw in the contents of the book. She had, instead of adjusting her theory to fit the evidence,  edited the evidence to fit her theory. She ignored the fact that the witches tales of Sabbats, flying to them, orgies with the Devil, feasting on dead and unbaptised babies were obtained by torture or the threat of torture and accepted them as nothing less than the unvarnished truth. She used the fact that a lot of the stories told by witches from a large arera of Europe told the same stories to justify her claim of an integrated European witch cult ignoring that, in the vast majority of cases, the answers were the same because the prisoners were fed the same leading questions and would say just about anythhing to get the torture to stop. The idea that a Coven of witches was always 13 members was gleaned by Murray from probably the only freely given confession to witchcraft, given by Isobel Gowdie in 1662, the only known instance of this particular "fact".

It was because of her standing in the academic community, achieved by her work on Egyptology, that academics who saw the faults in her arguments and saw her misuse of evidence, closed ranks and stayed silent about the glaring errors in the work and, by the time they decided to speak out, people like Gerald B Gardner, the founder (aka inventor) of modern Wicca and Robert Graves had accepted the story hook, line and sinker.

Her book is well worth a read if for no other reason than to show what you can get away with if you have a strong enough reputation; the Golden Bough is also worth reading but I would not recommend trying it at one sitting and, great though it is, even Fraser, later on in his life, admitted that it contained errors.   
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Udayana

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2015, 08:49:51 AM »
Rose,

Yes, I agree with most of your post. Everything we have is "wrong" in one way or another. However the difference between Jeremy's universe and Owlswing's is that we are able to compare aspects of it between ourselves: If we agree on a ruler we can go around checking that we get the same results measuring a table say or, along similar lines, the distance to the Sun or the positions of the Planets. It is still a fallible model of the universe, but it is one that is usable day to day and continuously refined.

Actually, even to go along with Jeremy's version, we need to put aside NS's "hard solipsism" option.

With the other, faith based, universes it gets increasingly difficult to connect and communicate with each other about them - except where they overlap Jeremy's empirical universe. For example, people can debate the nature of god, love, divinity, soul, spirituality and so on all day and not be sure whether they are discussing things that mean anything, make sense, to each other or not.  Ultimately it relies on recommending poetry, myths, music to each other and hoping there is some form of communication. As these worlds are so difficult to share, there is no way of saying if one is correct or not.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 08:51:57 AM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Owlswing

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2015, 09:55:01 AM »
At last I can call an end to this thread, and leave it happyy in the knowledge that I have finally got an answer to the question posed. Not on this thread admittedly but I have it.

Thank you Sassy (probably the only time I am ever likely to post thoise words)

Quote
I have to laugh that Owl . . . THINK(s) that being in agreement with Floo actually carries any weight to their diabolical posts.
Truth is they think they can somehow tell God, that he is wrong about his own teachings, reinvent Jesus Christ and know more than Christians who have actually read the bible.

What stands out is the words from God:-

Psalm 14:1 (KJV)

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.


It seems Gods words say it better than any believer could about OWL.

Fools because they have said there is no God in their heart. Even more foolish that they believe their writings (part of their works) which are basically insults constitute an argument in support of their disbelief.
You can insult me all you want but there is no escaping the truth. You don't have an intelligent or educated argument between you.

Carry on... show yourselves up all you want. Hide behind your ignorance because that is all your posts actually show.
You cannot argue against the word of God because none of you actually know it.

Sassy

« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 10:05:56 AM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2015, 10:04:23 AM »
Rose,

Yes, I agree with most of your post. Everything we have is "wrong" in one way or another. However the difference between Jeremy's universe and Owlswing's is that we are able to compare aspects of it between ourselves: If we agree on a ruler we can go around checking that we get the same results measuring a table say or, along similar lines, the distance to the Sun or the positions of the Planets. It is still a fallible model of the universe, but it is one that is usable day to day and continuously refined.

Actually, even to go along with Jeremy's version, we need to put aside NS's "hard solipsism" option.

With the other, faith based, universes it gets increasingly difficult to connect and communicate with each other about them - except where they overlap Jeremy's empirical universe. For example, people can debate the nature of god, love, divinity, soul, spirituality and so on all day and not be sure whether they are discussing things that mean anything, make sense, to each other or not.  Ultimately it relies on recommending poetry, myths, music to each other and hoping there is some form of communication. As these worlds are so difficult to share, there is no way of saying if one is correct or not.

Quote

. . . hoping there is some form of communication.


There, Udayana, is the basis of the entire mess between the various religios and religons - there is no "form of communication" possible between the die-hards. I try to communicate my beliefs and explain why I disagree with theirs but I might just as well be talking to the walls of the Mersey Tunnel.
 
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2015, 10:23:33 AM »
You said you were at last calling an end to this thread. Now off you go Mat! For real this time?

Gonnagle

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2015, 10:41:40 AM »
Dear Owlswing,

Quote
There, Udayana, is the basis of the entire mess between the various religios and religons - there is no "form of communication" possible between the die-hards. I try to communicate my beliefs and explain why I disagree with theirs but I might just as well be talking to the walls of the Mersey Tunnel.

Baby steps, or Rome was not built in a day, this thread is evidence that little steps are taken.

There is communication, Rhiannon and Sane, a pagan and an atheist, but then that could just be me as they are two of my favourite posters.

We all come to this forum with a certain mindset, I suppose what we need to remember is that behind a name, Owlswing, Gonnagle, Jeremyp, Floo, there is a real human being, flawed characters ( we all are ) but sometimes, not very often, little lights shine through, a classic example of this happened about a week ago, the pagans on this forum reaching out and touching our very own Shaker :o :o

Baby steps Owlswing. :) :)

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floo

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2015, 11:41:17 AM »
Dear Owlswing,

Quote
There, Udayana, is the basis of the entire mess between the various religios and religons - there is no "form of communication" possible between the die-hards. I try to communicate my beliefs and explain why I disagree with theirs but I might just as well be talking to the walls of the Mersey Tunnel.

Baby steps, or Rome was not built in a day, this thread is evidence that little steps are taken.

There is communication, Rhiannon and Sane, a pagan and an atheist, but then that could just be me as they are two of my favourite posters.

We all come to this forum with a certain mindset, I suppose what we need to remember is that behind a name, Owlswing, Gonnagle, Jeremyp, Floo, there is a real human being, flawed characters ( we all are ) but sometimes, not very often, little lights shine through, a classic example of this happened about a week ago, the pagans on this forum reaching out and touching our very own Shaker :o :o

Baby steps Owlswing. :) :)

Gonnagle.

Good post. :) I am not a Pagan though, just a very flawed agnostic heathen.

Owlswing

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #118 on: October 29, 2015, 12:19:49 PM »
Dear Owlswing,

Quote
There, Udayana, is the basis of the entire mess between the various religios and religons - there is no "form of communication" possible between the die-hards. I try to communicate my beliefs and explain why I disagree with theirs but I might just as well be talking to the walls of the Mersey Tunnel.

Baby steps, or Rome was not built in a day, this thread is evidence that little steps are taken.

There is communication, Rhiannon and Sane, a pagan and an atheist, but then that could just be me as they are two of my favourite posters.

We all come to this forum with a certain mindset, I suppose what we need to remember is that behind a name, Owlswing, Gonnagle, Jeremyp, Floo, there is a real human being, flawed characters ( we all are ) but sometimes, not very often, little lights shine through, a classic example of this happened about a week ago, the pagans on this forum reaching out and touching our very own Shaker :o :o

Baby steps Owlswing. :) :)

Gonnagle.

Good post. :) I am not a Pagan though, just a very flawed agnostic heathen.

If you are heathen - or, rather, Heathen, then you would be Pagan, a follower of Asatru, the Norse pantheon. OOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WASSAIL! (Rough translation - Eyup lads let's get royally pissed! Where's the mead barrel?
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

floo

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #119 on: October 29, 2015, 12:32:09 PM »
Dear Owlswing,

Quote
There, Udayana, is the basis of the entire mess between the various religios and religons - there is no "form of communication" possible between the die-hards. I try to communicate my beliefs and explain why I disagree with theirs but I might just as well be talking to the walls of the Mersey Tunnel.

Baby steps, or Rome was not built in a day, this thread is evidence that little steps are taken.

There is communication, Rhiannon and Sane, a pagan and an atheist, but then that could just be me as they are two of my favourite posters.

We all come to this forum with a certain mindset, I suppose what we need to remember is that behind a name, Owlswing, Gonnagle, Jeremyp, Floo, there is a real human being, flawed characters ( we all are ) but sometimes, not very often, little lights shine through, a classic example of this happened about a week ago, the pagans on this forum reaching out and touching our very own Shaker :o :o

Baby steps Owlswing. :) :)

Gonnagle.

Good post. :) I am not a Pagan though, just a very flawed agnostic heathen.

If you are heathen - or, rather, Heathen, then you would be Pagan, a follower of Asatru, the Norse pantheon. OOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WASSAIL! (Rough translation - Eyup lads let's get royally pissed! Where's the mead barrel?

I drink in strict moderation, having had only one small glass of wine in three months!

Owlswing

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #120 on: October 29, 2015, 12:37:15 PM »
Dear Owlswing,

Quote
There, Udayana, is the basis of the entire mess between the various religios and religons - there is no "form of communication" possible between the die-hards. I try to communicate my beliefs and explain why I disagree with theirs but I might just as well be talking to the walls of the Mersey Tunnel.

Baby steps, or Rome was not built in a day, this thread is evidence that little steps are taken.

There is communication, Rhiannon and Sane, a pagan and an atheist, but then that could just be me as they are two of my favourite posters.

We all come to this forum with a certain mindset, I suppose what we need to remember is that behind a name, Owlswing, Gonnagle, Jeremyp, Floo, there is a real human being, flawed characters ( we all are ) but sometimes, not very often, little lights shine through, a classic example of this happened about a week ago, the pagans on this forum reaching out and touching our very own Shaker :o :o

Baby steps Owlswing. :) :)

Gonnagle.

Good post. :) I am not a Pagan though, just a very flawed agnostic heathen.

If you are heathen - or, rather, Heathen, then you would be Pagan, a follower of Asatru, the Norse pantheon. OOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WASSAIL! (Rough translation - Eyup lads let's get royally pissed! Where's the mead barrel?

I drink in strict moderation, having had only one small glass of wine in three months!

In that case you are not a "heathen" of any description! My comment was not meant to be taken seriously, more as a minor item of education. Elucidation?
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Gonnagle

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #121 on: October 29, 2015, 01:20:54 PM »
Dear Owlswing,

Floo is not a heathen, Floo is a Floo, a very old religion, I think she worships the god Cantankerous. ::) ::)

Gonnagle.
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Owlswing

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #122 on: October 29, 2015, 01:36:15 PM »
Dear Owlswing,

Floo is not a heathen, Floo is a Floo, a very old religion, I think she worships the god Cantankerous. ::) ::)

Gonnagle.

 ;D
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Rhiannon

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #123 on: October 29, 2015, 01:48:42 PM »
Just picked up the mead for Saturday. Very useful having an English Heritage shop nearby, they stock four kinds.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?
« Reply #124 on: October 29, 2015, 01:57:54 PM »
Just picked up the mead for Saturday. Very useful having an English Heritage shop nearby, they stock four kinds.
Is one of them Diet Mead?