Pagan beliefs are "in error". In what way in error and who says so?

[Rhiannon]

Sadly no.

[Owlswing]

Sadly no.

True - they only make mead for adults - children who use diet drinks tend to grow up rather rapidly on mead! Hairy chests for men and an incredible accuracy with a throwing axe for the women!

It is never a good thing to piss off pagan women. Even Pagan men try not to do it too often, but then we treat our women, sorry, ladies, as equals.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sadly no.

True - they only make mead for adults - children who use diet drinks tend to grow up rather rapidly on mead! Hairy chests for men and an incredible accuracy with a throwing axe for the women!

It is never a good thing to piss off pagan women. Even Pagan men try not to do it too often, but then we treat our women, sorry, ladies, as equals.

More fucking pagan threats.

[Rhiannon]

Don't worry, Vlad, axe throwing isn't my thing. I'd just knit you something humiliating.

[Owlswing]

Sadly no.

True - they only make mead for adults - children who use diet drinks tend to grow up rather rapidly on mead! Hairy chests for men and an incredible accuracy with a throwing axe for the women!

It is never a good thing to piss off pagan women. Even Pagan men try not to do it too often, but then we treat our women, sorry, ladies, as equals.

More fucking pagan threats.

Who was talking to you?

Where are the threats!

I was commenting to Rhiannon, who being a Pagan Lady would understand what I was saying - being a Christian male you obviously would and do not.

[Owlswing]

Don't worry, Vlad, axe throwing isn't my thing. I'd just knit you something humiliating.

Oh yes!

Knit him thimble - he can use it as a willy-warmer.

[Dicky Underpants]

Sadly no.

True - they only make mead for adults - children who use diet drinks tend to grow up rather rapidly on mead! Hairy chests for men and an incredible accuracy with a throwing axe for the women!

It is never a good thing to piss off pagan women. Even Pagan men try not to do it too often, but then we treat our women, sorry, ladies, as equals.

More fucking pagan threats.

Who was talking to you?

Where are the threats!

I was commenting to Rhiannon, who being a Pagan Lady would understand what I was saying - being a Christian male you obviously would and do not.

She would also understand most Christians better than they understand themselves.

[Dicky Underpants]

I liked The White Goddess; though I am still not at all sure what was on about at times. It's more about response to myth by poetic means, and how myth is poetic at base than a study. It's easier reading than either The Golden Bough or The Hero With a Thousand Faces.

Thanks for that NS. I read some of The Golden Bough a long time ago, and The Hero With a Thousand Faces a few years back, sometime after I'd become disenchanted with literature of this kind. I must say, I found the arguments in the latter pretty specious. I'm all for the Occam's Razor approach, but trying to throw all these disparate religious and mythical ideas into the same pot, and claiming that there's some kind of primordial idea from which they all stem was rather less than convincing. I suppose you could say that, since we are all unified in our mortality and the universal experience of suffering, then the reaching out to hero figures who might mitigate or deliver us from these unpleasant facts is pretty widespread, but beyond that the connections can seem quite nebulous.
However, I did note elsewhere that one scholar claimed that Mark had deliberately inverted the character of Homer's Odysseus in his portrayal of Jesus*, in a very conscious reworking of a myth that was already centuries old.

*The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis R. MacDonald

[Dicky Underpants]

You clearly have no idea of what "the modern version of paganism" is.

It was created, re-discovered, re-invented (take your choice), by a man named Gerald B Gardner, who created Wicca under the influence of Margaret A Murray's now discredited theory that the "witches" of the 14th to 17th centuries who were the target of the Inquisition and others during the witch-craze were the survivors of an underground pagan religiomn that had existed since pre-Christian times.

He, Alex and Maxine Sanders, popularised his ideas during the 50's and 60's after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts.

Over the years his claims were debunked but he had sparked an interest in both paganism and the Craft.

My deities may well be not real any more than the gods of every other religion in the world may be.

As it happens your rant above tells me one thing loud and clear - I hit a nerve!

Whether Jeremy has any idea about the modern version of paganism - what about his assertion that we know (and can know) practically nothing about the ancient religions from which it is supposed to derive? I suppose the Christians did do a pretty good job in eradicating many strands of pagan belief and practice in Europe and many other parts of the world (the Spanish had almost miraculous success in wiping out Central and South American native beliefs, Carlos Castaneda's sham fabrications notwithstanding).

However, regarding how much can legitimately be traced to genuine historical origins - have you any thoughts on Robert Graves' "The White Goddess"? (Graves' book attempts to trace what he calls 'lunar knowledge' back to an ancient 'tree' alphabet, of which we certainly have a number of examples). I picked up a copy the other day - it's not my usual kind of reading these days, having abandoned any belief in the 'spiritual', whether it be of pagan, christian, buddhist or any other religious origin. I meant to read Graves' book decades ago when I first learned of it from Colin Wilson's 'The Occult', but never got round to it (I can hear Jeremy and Leonard shouting "Damn good thing you didn't" )
However, if anyone is familiar with Graves' book, and think it worth a look, if only from a scholarly point of view, then I might get round to reading it.

Robert Graves was another disciple of Margaret A Murray. She was a highly respected Egyptologist and, when WW1 made excavations in Egypt more of less impossible, she transferred her interest to Sir James George Frazer's (a hero of hers) area of expertise, anthropology (see The Golden Bough) and began to formulate her theory that not only were the witches persecuted during the witch-hunts of the 14th to 17th centuries the followers of a Europe-wide underground Devil worshipping cult that had existed ever since the coming of Christianinty, but was, in 1921, still flourishing underground.

She published The Witch Cult in Western Europe that proclaimed this theory.

That's all very interesting about Margaret A. Murray and how she misled many people about the origins and survival of witchcraft. What I'm interested in is if there are any more authentic studies about the origins of witchcraft and whether any authentic lineage can be traced to ancient times. Do we agree (as Jeremy suggested) that any definitive traces have been effectively wiped out by the Christians and the Romans?

How about Professor Ronald Hutton - is he a worthy repository of knowledge? Seems like a an interesting cove on telly - he used to come into the Oxfam shop where I worked in Clifton.

[Nearly Sane]

The Hero with a Thousand Faces is interesting because it has been influential in mainstream culture. It's not that it is necessarily right but for a time it informed culture through all the followers of George Lucas.

[Dicky Underpants]

With the other, faith based, universes it gets increasingly difficult to connect and communicate with each other about them - except where they overlap Jeremy's empirical universe. For example, people can debate the nature of god, love, divinity, soul, spirituality and so on all day and not be sure whether they are discussing things that mean anything, make sense, to each other or not.  Ultimately it relies on recommending poetry, myths, music to each other and hoping there is some form of communication. As these worlds are so difficult to share, there is no way of saying if one is correct or not.

I like that, Udayana. What I don't like is positing the idea of a 'spiritual dimension' first, and then claiming that this piece of poetry, this music, this myth, etc. points to an objective transcendent reality.  The poetry and the music may indeed evoke profound feelings, and sometimes one can meet people who seem to have similar feelings evoked by the same aesthetic triggers. Equally, some people may have completely different experiences.
Stravinsky originally made a harsh statement to this effect "Music, by its very nature, is incapable of expressing anything". He later modified this to something like "What the composer puts in is not necessarily what is perceived by the listener". That doesn't quite condemn us each to our own solipsistic universes, but it's not too comforting.

[Dicky Underpants]

The Hero with a Thousand Faces is interesting because it has been influential in mainstream culture. It's not that it is necessarily right but for a time it informed culture through all the followers of George Lucas.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Nearly Sane]

Just wondering if there is a role for Jung in the approach to paganism? It's not that it is handed down by correct texts, it is that it can continually be rediscovered by channelling into the collective unconscious? That the Hero with a Thousand Faces is are expression of the archetypes we all encounter.


Linking back to my previous post on mainstream culture, it is interesting how much of the religions portrayed in Game of Thrones map on to this, with a main religion based on archetypes, one of which is implicitly seen as mapping onto the monotheistic religions, and yet what is portrayed as purer is the wilder beliefs of the North and beyond the Wall.

[Nearly Sane]

Stravinsky, though, is still following the idea of there being a meaning. Surely the death of the author killed the composer and painter as well?

[Rhiannon]

I haven't read Graves. I don't watch Game of Thrones and I only know the plot of LOTR because Viggo Mortensen is so beautiful.

I think I said before that my path owes more to Richard Mabey and Geoff Hamilton than any 'pagan' writer.

[Nearly Sane]

Yep, Rhiannon, a lot of this is about an idea of paganism, not a specific. I think it channels in to the gap between experience and reality and is a simple human reaction to that. But we dress the gap in clothes and jewellery to make it less mysterious.

I have no beliefs but a shaft of sunlight through Babbity's window while Gonnagle asks persistently 'Why, big man?" is all that is needed. It is a Mozart Horn concerto, the laugh with friends, the glug of a new bottle of fine red being poured.

[Owlswing]

You clearly have no idea of what "the modern version of paganism" is.

It was created, re-discovered, re-invented (take your choice), by a man named Gerald B Gardner, who created Wicca under the influence of Margaret A Murray's now discredited theory that the "witches" of the 14th to 17th centuries who were the target of the Inquisition and others during the witch-craze were the survivors of an underground pagan religiomn that had existed since pre-Christian times.

He, Alex and Maxine Sanders, popularised his ideas during the 50's and 60's after the repeal of the Witchcraft Acts.

Over the years his claims were debunked but he had sparked an interest in both paganism and the Craft.

My deities may well be not real any more than the gods of every other religion in the world may be.

As it happens your rant above tells me one thing loud and clear - I hit a nerve!

Whether Jeremy has any idea about the modern version of paganism - what about his assertion that we know (and can know) practically nothing about the ancient religions from which it is supposed to derive? I suppose the Christians did do a pretty good job in eradicating many strands of pagan belief and practice in Europe and many other parts of the world (the Spanish had almost miraculous success in wiping out Central and South American native beliefs, Carlos Castaneda's sham fabrications notwithstanding).

However, regarding how much can legitimately be traced to genuine historical origins - have you any thoughts on Robert Graves' "The White Goddess"? (Graves' book attempts to trace what he calls 'lunar knowledge' back to an ancient 'tree' alphabet, of which we certainly have a number of examples). I picked up a copy the other day - it's not my usual kind of reading these days, having abandoned any belief in the 'spiritual', whether it be of pagan, christian, buddhist or any other religious origin. I meant to read Graves' book decades ago when I first learned of it from Colin Wilson's 'The Occult', but never got round to it (I can hear Jeremy and Leonard shouting "Damn good thing you didn't" )
However, if anyone is familiar with Graves' book, and think it worth a look, if only from a scholarly point of view, then I might get round to reading it.

Robert Graves was another disciple of Margaret A Murray. She was a highly respected Egyptologist and, when WW1 made excavations in Egypt more of less impossible, she transferred her interest to Sir James George Frazer's (a hero of hers) area of expertise, anthropology (see The Golden Bough) and began to formulate her theory that not only were the witches persecuted during the witch-hunts of the 14th to 17th centuries the followers of a Europe-wide underground Devil worshipping cult that had existed ever since the coming of Christianinty, but was, in 1921, still flourishing underground.

She published The Witch Cult in Western Europe that proclaimed this theory.

That's all very interesting about Margaret A. Murray and how she misled many people about the origins and survival of witchcraft. What I'm interested in is if there are any more authentic studies about the origins of witchcraft and whether any authentic lineage can be traced to ancient times. Do we agree (as Jeremy suggested) that any definitive traces have been effectively wiped out by the Christians and the Romans?

My investigations, ten or more years of them, have been into the history of witchcraft rather than the history of Paganism.

The British Library has been a treasure trove and in all those yeras I have only scratched the surface of their collection that appears if you enter either Pagan or Witchcraft into their collection search engine.

There is a lot of literature on both, a great deal of it, and it would be, in my estimation, a  life's work to go through it all. I cannot even guess at what would be the result of an in-depth search, but if you have the time, the inclination, and the geograhical location to enable you to visit St Pancras on an extended regular basis there would be no reason why there should not, one day, be a Dicky Underpants' Exhaustive history of Paganism available in hard-cover at Foyles for about £200.00 as it will be a huge tome.

How about Professor Ronald Hutton - is he a worthy repository of knowledge? Seems like a an interesting cove on telly - he used to come into the Oxfam shop where I worked in Clifton.

He is a expert on Paganism in Britain. All his books on te subject are well worth reading. Being, I think, a Druid himself he is extremely passionate about his siubject.

He is also one of those who helped, at the very least, to debunk Gardner's claims for the history of Wicca.

[Rhiannon]

History and folklore matter to me but again I'm not sure they influence me beyond a kind of inner recognition that may be mere fancy anyway.

The reason I stick with this place is down to that - a spark of recognition in a conversation with a fellow poster and I think, yes, you get it. I am blessed with the greatest of friends but we discuss homework schedules and supper ideas. Perhaps like all people with proper manners we skirt the inner stuff.

[Rhiannon]

I like Prof Hutton.

[Owlswing]

Just wondering if there is a role for Jung in the approach to paganism? It's not that it is handed down by correct texts, it is that it can continually be rediscovered by channelling into the collective unconscious? That the Hero with a Thousand Faces is are expression of the archetypes we all encounter.


Linking back to my previous post on mainstream culture, it is interesting how much of the religions portrayed in Game of Thrones map on to this, with a main religion based on archetypes, one of which is implicitly seen as mapping onto the monotheistic religions, and yet what is portrayed as purer is the wilder beliefs of the North and beyond the Wall.

I am not what you would call in any way au fait with any of Jung's work.

I have however, at variious gatherings over many years, heard others talking about Paganism and Jung in the same breath but you would need perhaps to investigate Google to find any written information from those far far cleverer than I on the subject.

Now watch out for the flood of "that won't be difficult" posts!     

[Rhiannon]

Jung looked at the archetypes in Tarot, I believe.

[Owlswing]

Jung looked at the archetypes in Tarot, I believe.

I have to admit that the works of Jung and Freud are outside my areas of interest. Why does one person, in certain set of circumstances, pick their nose while another, in the same circumstances, scratches their arse, is of no consequence or interest to me as I just wish they would do neither in public or where I can see them.

I have little or no knowledge of what either of these august gentlemen wrote or wrote about and have little or no interest in finding out.

I have no doubt that some on here will be able to tell me that this is because I am not intelligent enough to understand what they wrote or talked about and that is why I believe in the Pagan religion and deities rather than rejecting them for the Christian god or for none.

I have never claimed to have university level intelligence and some of the terms used in arguments pro and con the various beliefs and non-beliefs leave me rushing for a dictionary or Google and coming away as bewildered as when I went.

I believe what I believe - I believe it becasue I can understand it in my own stunted way. I do not need to garland it with wreaths of long words and deep philosophy.

If and when, if ever, the Goddess wishes me to understand more I have no doubt she will arrange it. As I was told very early in my conversion, read all you can and, when you reach a point where you need a teacher, one will appear. So far, each time I have reached such a point the right person has appeared - Kate West, Ronald Hutton among them.   

[Samuel]

Nice thread

I find Rhiannon's descriptions of her path quite appealing, as she knows. The rocks, trees, the sky, the stars... Yes, all of them, they all mean something to me, and that meaning is difficult or impossible to express. For now that is all it is for me. But one day... who knows. I'm happy to find out along the way.

I've long thought that any religious practice is simply a framework within which those felt but unarticulated and elusive meanings can be explored, Given form and expression, value and even authority. Ideas within stories, stories within ideas, a never ending spiral of questing for resolution of the mess of self and the dim awareness of our surroundings afforded to us as human merely beings*.

And it's all well and good to talk... But in the end we turn away from conversations to deal with reality in all the neccesary ways that our individual natures demand and make the best of a bad job. Beyond the labels we cling to a smidgen of compassion and humility towards our sisters and brothers is basically what it all comes down to.

*that 'human merely being' phrase is pinched from the poem i thank you God for this most amazing by e.e. Cummings... I really like it

[Owlswing]

Nice thread

I find Rhiannon's descriptions of her path quite appealing, as she knows. The rocks, trees, the sky, the stars... Yes, all of them, they all mean something to me, and that meaning is difficult or impossible to express. For now that is all it is for me. But one day... who knows. I'm happy to find out along the way.

I've long thought that any religious practice is simply a framework within which those felt but unarticulated and elusive meanings can be explored, Given form and expression, value and even authority. Ideas within stories, stories within ideas, a never ending spiral of questing for resolution of the mess of self and the dim awareness of our surroundings afforded to us as human merely beings*.

And it's all well and good to talk... But in the end we turn away from conversations to deal with reality in all the neccesary ways that our individual natures demand and make the best of a bad job. Beyond the labels we cling to a smidgen of compassion and humility towards our sisters and brothers is basically what it all comes down to.

*that 'human merely being' phrase is pinched from the poem i thank you God for this most amazing by e.e. Cummings... I really like it

Can I gather from the above that you are Pagan-Sympathetic rather than Pagan?

I have to say that it was only after my conversion and staring to delve into the finer points of the belief relating to the natural world that I started to notice just how diverse the natural lives in my little garden are.

I have also come to find just sitting looking out of the window and watching the garden extremely calming - especially after a rather more than normally annoying session here. No names - no jankers.

[Samuel]

Can I gather from the above that you are Pagan-Sympathetic rather than Pagan?

I guess so...  but I wouldn't say more so than any other religion. I can find things in all them to identify with. It's certain attitudes I find difficult.