Author Topic: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?  (Read 56095 times)

BeRational

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #200 on: November 09, 2015, 10:06:03 AM »
It would be a poor world without faith. We need faith in our families...in our doctors and scientists...we need faith in our governments...in our neighbours...in our judicial system...we need faith in the banking system...now though these often let us down they still try to give the impression that they deserve our faith...so it really depends who deserves the greatest faith...as I say...againstall other faithful seeking institutions I prefer the veracity of the Holy Bible...andits spiritual/electric message.

We NEVER need faith.

Faith is a BAD thing.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

ippy

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #201 on: November 09, 2015, 10:35:57 AM »
Thanks for that Floo...but the veracity of the Gospels is proven to me...which is why I'm back.

Looking forward to some electrifying debate?  ;)

And dynamism!

ippy

Sassy

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #202 on: November 09, 2015, 10:44:09 AM »
Evidence in a court of law is witnesses accounts.

Much of it, yes, and there are well-documented studies showing that it's not nearly as reliable as people think it, yet we still have a culture that values it.

A jury has to decide whom they believe. Not very different to anything regarding faith and witnesses.
Either way the choice is the individuals. You choose whom and what you believe.
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In a court witnesses who witness things are producing EVIDENCE.

And, in a court of law, a claim that Jesus was real would be thrown out in moments as, at best, hearsay - it would be inadmissible in evidence. Eye-witness testimony, delivered in person, is permitted (and, for cultural reasons, given undue weight) but the allegation that someone told you they'd seen it, without the opportunity to cross-examine them to determine how accurate their memory is or trustworthy their contribution is would be thrown out.

It wouldn't... the oath in court says " I swear by Almighty God" it would hypocritical to accept an oath sworn by Almighty God then throw out the belief Jesus was real. It is a fact that a third of the world accept Christ as real. So by that fact alone they could not throw out that Christ actually was real. Was he the Son of God? The question that everyone wants to know the answer to. But not one everyone would act on. More importantly... does believing in Christ bring people into a relationship with God?   Maybe you understand not the weight and measure of who Jesus Christ is. Given what the power of his name still produces throughout the world, you would be a fool to think no truth to it.
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It's hearsay. At best.

O.

The evidence that people are still healed in his name suggests you are wrong.
Because you never look for evidence do you?
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Outrider

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #203 on: November 09, 2015, 10:45:10 AM »
It would be a poor world without faith. We need faith in our families...in our doctors and scientists...we need faith in our governments...in our neighbours...in our judicial system...we need faith in the banking system...now though these often let us down they still try to give the impression that they deserve our faith...so it really depends who deserves the greatest faith...as I say...against aiil other faithful seeking institutions I prefer the veracity of the Holy Bible...and its spiritual/electric message.

I don't know whether you're not differentiating between what I'd call faith and trust, or they just aren't different for you.

For me there's a difference between trusting the behaviour of a family, a partner, a government or a banking system and the faith of accepting the idea of a deity.

I can review any given government's performance, I can assess the behaviour of my wife or my family, I can read reports into the controls in place in the banking system and therefore decide on an informed basis whether to put my trust in them in any given situation.

There is no information on gods, nothing on which an informed choice can be made. There are claims, certainly, but those claims cannot be in any way verified - that doesn't make them untrue, necessarily, but it makes them unreliable, so we are left to take the claims on faith. That's not trust.

Faith, in and of itself, isn't a problem, though it's not my bag. Unfortunately, faith tends to congregate into religions, and religions - organisations seeking to wield influence on unverifiable claims - are a problem.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Sassy

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2015, 10:47:56 AM »
In any case, none of the gospel writers told us his name or made any claim to be an eyewitness.  The authorship claims were invented later.

PS Actually that's not true - the gospel of Thomas, for instance, has a name on it.  But the Church doesn't accept those.

The other problem with "we have the eyewitnesses" is that Christians never make any attempt to account for all the stuff they choose to ignore.

Truth is people like yourself do not have any idea about Christ, and true believers.

If you read the bible you would know believers deal with reality and fact in their lives. Gods presence, the presence of Christ and the knowledge that the truth changes the person and God speaks to them.

What a CHURCH not built on Spirit and Truth says about books is irrelevant.
Christ and the truth about him impacts on the individual. His truth from God changes the persons and Gods presence and Spirit make the person a new creation.

You look to a written word. The believer has the word within them.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #205 on: November 09, 2015, 10:55:45 AM »
Sassy,

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Selective reasoning and cherry picking isn't my bag.

Any reasoning at all would be helpful though. It's a simple enough question - having committed the negative proof fallacy so beloved of Hope, how would you propose to get out of it? How even in principle do you think it's possible to prove that something didn't happen? 

How is God, the Son and Holy Spirit negative proof?
Well we are waiting for you to explain. You first have to understand the reasoning of God and Christianity to raise even your chocolate sword toward it. So far you have nothing regarding reasoning to hold a chocolate sword to the truth of God.
So instead of words lets have some real understanding and reasoning from you.
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And once you've done that, how then would you propose to go about demonstrating both that the accounts written decades after the claimed event were accurately recorded, and - even if they were - that what the "witnesses" think they saw was actually what they did see?

Well bring both accounts then show us how the truth of this works...

King James Bible
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

King James Bible
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.




Read Jeremiah 31:31-34.

You see your very ignorance of the word of God shows why your errors are so great when it comes to your reasoning.
2,000 years on the same Spirit is teaching Gods people. The same Spirit who always brought Gods words to man.
Now if you had proof that wasn't true you would have an argument. Truth is you foolish thought to mock God and in doing so have now shown everyone how useless and  silly your reasoning is, in comparison to that which he has already revealed.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Outrider

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2015, 10:57:31 AM »
A jury has to decide whom they believe. Not very different to anything regarding faith and witnesses. Either way the choice is the individuals. You choose whom and what you believe.

And, in both instances, we could all benefit from a better educated, less credulous populace...

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It wouldn't... the oath in court says " I swear by Almighty God" it would hypocritical to accept an oath sworn by Almighty God then throw out the belief Jesus was real.

No-one is required to swear, it's perfectly acceptable to make an affirmation instead. You could view it as hypocrisy, I see at as one of the ironic idiosyncracies of the history of the British judiciary, but it is amusing that the rules that govern the evidence delivered within the trial don't cover the confirmations made as part of the ritual.

Nevertheless, whether hypocrisy or just irony, testimony equivalent to the Gospels would almost certainly be deemed inadmissible as hearsay in a trial.

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It is a fact that a third of the world accept Christ as real. So by that fact alone they could not throw out that Christ actually was real.

A third? A third might or might not personally identify as Christian, certainly a significant portion of that third probably accept the idea - that means that two thirds of the world don't accept the claims. If you're making the logically invalid argument from popular opinion you're losing anyway.

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Was he the Son of God? The question that everyone wants to know the answer to.

I suspect the bulk of the world don't think about it very much at all. A third of the world would love to know what they believe is true, but that doesn't mean they want to know THE answer, they want to know AN answer.

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But not one everyone would act on.

On the contrary, if it were somehow proven to be the case every rational person in the world would act on it.

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More importantly... does believing in Christ bring people into a relationship with God?

Maybe, though it seems unlikely. Certainly if other religious views are correct believing in Christ takes you further away from God, or gods, or Nirvana, or...

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Maybe you understand not the weight and measure of who Jesus Christ is.

Or maybe I get exactly the weight and measure of it, and you don't?

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Given what the power of his name still produces throughout the world, you would be a fool to think no truth to it.
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The same can be said of Allah, and yet the two are mutually incompatible. Given that at least one group of millions can be wrong, what reason do we have not to think that both groups of millions could be wrong?

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The evidence that people are still healed in his name suggests you are wrong.
Because you never look for evidence do you?

On the contrary, those claims have been extensively researched, and at best the result is that there's no clear evidence. Time and again purported miracles have been revealed to be commonplace events, natural course of diseases or outright fraud.

Why doesn't God heal amputees?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

NicholasMarks

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #207 on: November 09, 2015, 11:00:37 AM »
Now we have established that 'faith'  is having trust in things we cannot automatically see the mechanics of and which are hard to understand anyway yet are vital to our existence we can begin seeing that this is the key principle behind the teaching of Almighty God.

He is saying that the mechanics behind the universe are almost impossible to understand but offers us all a great future if we can overcome the demands of evil intent which is the overwhelming ruler over our existence unless we follow Jesus accurately.

Now, modern science and modern politics give the veracity to those words because thanks to the scientific weapons of mass destruction we are teetering on the brink of WW3...which, again we are forewarned about and offered an escape route providing we have accurate faith in resurrection.

Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #208 on: November 09, 2015, 11:02:19 AM »
How is God, the Son and Holy Spirit negative proof?
The negative proof fallacy - as Hope ought to be the first to tell you, as he employs it nearly every day, but it never, ever sinks in - is the fallacy of believing that the lack of explicit evidence against X counts as evidence for X; that X is worth taking seriously if there's no evidence against. If you're being consistent, rather than simply trying to prop up your favourite hypothesis (usually a god of some sort), this commits one to believing literally anything and indeed everything which so far lacks explicit counter-evidence; so to be consistent one has to believe not only in all gods, not just your chosen one out of thousands, but unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, alien abductions, Nibiru and everything - literally.

This is of course the most abjectly woolly-minded nonsense employed only by those utterly devoid of critical thinking skills. The rational position is to demand positive evidence for, not the mere lack of evidence against.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 11:17:09 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #209 on: November 09, 2015, 11:18:23 AM »
Sassy,

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Selective reasoning and cherry picking isn't my bag.

Any reasoning at all would be helpful though. It's a simple enough question - having committed the negative proof fallacy so beloved of Hope, how would you propose to get out of it? How even in principle do you think it's possible to prove that something didn't happen? 

How is God, the Son and Holy Spirit negative proof?
Well we are waiting for you to explain. You first have to understand the reasoning of God and Christianity to raise even your chocolate sword toward it. So far you have nothing regarding reasoning to hold a chocolate sword to the truth of God.
So instead of words lets have some real understanding and reasoning from you.
Quote
And once you've done that, how then would you propose to go about demonstrating both that the accounts written decades after the claimed event were accurately recorded, and - even if they were - that what the "witnesses" think they saw was actually what they did see?

Well bring both accounts then show us how the truth of this works...

King James Bible
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

King James Bible
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.




Read Jeremiah 31:31-34.

You see your very ignorance of the word of God shows why your errors are so great when it comes to your reasoning.
2,000 years on the same Spirit is teaching Gods people. The same Spirit who always brought Gods words to man.
Now if you had proof that wasn't true you would have an argument. Truth is you foolish thought to mock God and in doing so have now shown everyone how useless and  silly your reasoning is, in comparison to that which he has already revealed.

When you produce a reasoned post maybe you will be taken seriously, until then............!

NicholasMarks

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #210 on: November 09, 2015, 11:21:49 AM »
The narrow minded cannot see that the science behind the entire universe which defies our  modern scientists is clearly known and understood by the Creator of the Holy Bible and though we may have difficulty understanding it we are still participants in its wonderful fruits that include resurrection and everlasting life...if we follow its rules.

floo

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #211 on: November 09, 2015, 11:22:57 AM »
The narrow minded cannot see that the science behind the entire universe which defiesour  modern scientists is clearly known and understood by the Creator of the Holy Bible and though we may have difficulty understanding it we are still participants in its wonderful fruits that include resurrection and everlasting life...if we follow its rules.

And you know that for a fact because...........?

Hope

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #212 on: November 09, 2015, 11:25:47 AM »
We NEVER need faith.

Faith is a BAD thing.
I'd disagree, BR; 'faith' is another name for trust, and I would suggest that, without trust, society couldn't survive.
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NicholasMarks

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #213 on: November 09, 2015, 11:29:02 AM »
I was just wondering what the reason our resident Christians would give for the reason for this action by Christ. How does it fit in with your theology?

The reason Jesus descended into Hades is because he died and this is where all people go after death...unless they have upbuilt within themselves an electric component that has the strength to escape...which, if you recall...is what Jesus did, snatching the keys of life and death from the hands of the keeper of Hades as he did so. Proof that resurrection is possible for us all if we follow the same righteous laws. 

Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #214 on: November 09, 2015, 11:29:56 AM »
We NEVER need faith.

Faith is a BAD thing.
I'd disagree, BR; 'faith' is another name for trust, and I would suggest that, without trust, society couldn't survive.
No it isn't.

I trust my doctor. Firstly there's someone to trust - he actually exists. Secondly, I trust him on the basis of long past experience - he's a good doctor but can only be known as such on the basis of consistent results - he has proven himself to be trustworthy. Good doctors, like bad ones, advertise themselves on the same basis - experience of good or poor results. Thirdly, I'm well aware that as a fallible human being, for innumerable reasons - error, tiredness, distraction, whatever - at any point he could make a mistake large or small, because that's what fallible humans operating with limited information and partial knowledge do. It's justified trust (that's the past) but also qualified trust (that's the future).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 11:41:58 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BeRational

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #215 on: November 09, 2015, 11:37:11 AM »
We NEVER need faith.

Faith is a BAD thing.
I'd disagree, BR; 'faith' is another name for trust, and I would suggest that, without trust, society couldn't survive.

It's not the same. If it is just say trust and why you trust that thing.

Faith is believing something in the absence of evidence, or in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

floo

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #216 on: November 09, 2015, 11:37:54 AM »
We NEVER need faith.

Faith is a BAD thing.
I'd disagree, BR; 'faith' is another name for trust, and I would suggest that, without trust, society couldn't survive.

Trusting in a deity is like trusting in fairies!

Hope

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #217 on: November 09, 2015, 11:38:07 AM »
Faith is the excuse people give themselves to believe things without sufficient evidence.
Faith is never a good idea, and no one should ever use faith for anything.
Sadly, it is the glue that holds society together, BR.  Without it, we would for ever be wondering whether someone who has said they'd do something for us was actually going to do so.  Relationships are based on faith/trust.

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No scientific assessment of any evidence has ever concluded any god of any description.
And what scientific assessment has actually ever been done?  Since science doesn't deal with the whole of reality, how can it be said that a scientific assessment has ever been carried out?
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Hope

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #218 on: November 09, 2015, 11:39:05 AM »
Trusting in a deity is like trusting in fairies!
In your opinion, yes.  Not in everyone's opinion, tho'.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #219 on: November 09, 2015, 11:40:29 AM »
Since science doesn't deal with the whole of reality, how can it be said that a scientific assessment has ever been carried out?
How do you know it doesn't?

What method do you use for ascertaining this supposed rest of reality?

Not that you'll answer, of course.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #220 on: November 09, 2015, 11:41:12 AM »
Faith is the excuse people give themselves to believe things without sufficient evidence.
Faith is never a good idea, and no one should ever use faith for anything.
Sadly, it is the glue that holds society together, BR.  Without it, we would for ever be wondering whether someone who has said they'd do something for us was actually going to do so.  Relationships are based on faith/trust.

Quote
No scientific assessment of any evidence has ever concluded any god of any description.
And what scientific assessment has actually ever been done?  Since science doesn't deal with the whole of reality, how can it be said that a scientific assessment has ever been carried out?

There is a BIG difference in trusting another human and putting your trust in a deity, which you can't prove exists! Anyway trust has to be earned, it is not wise to trust someone until they have earned your trust otherwise you could be in the deep proverbial!

Hope

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #221 on: November 09, 2015, 11:41:28 AM »
It cannot be a matter of faith and science, they are antithetical approaches. Science is the provisional acceptance of explanations in light of the evidence provided in support of them, whilst faith is the maintenance of a belief in the absence of, or contrary to, the evidence on offer.

O.
O, since science and faith address different questions, where is the antithetical-ness you refer to?
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BeRational

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #222 on: November 09, 2015, 11:43:01 AM »
Faith is the excuse people give themselves to believe things without sufficient evidence.
Faith is never a good idea, and no one should ever use faith for anything.
Sadly, it is the glue that holds society together, BR.  Without it, we would for ever be wondering whether someone who has said they'd do something for us was actually going to do so.  Relationships are based on faith/trust.

Quote
No scientific assessment of any evidence has ever concluded any god of any description.
And what scientific assessment has actually ever been done?  Since science doesn't deal with the whole of reality, how can it be said that a scientific assessment has ever been carried out?

My life contains zero faith. I have varying amounts of trust, but no faith in anything whatsoever.
You should not have faith either, it is not a pathway to truth, assuming you care in truth?

How do you know science does not deal with the whole of reality. Do you know what the whole of reality is?
Science is a method, and if you have a better method, please share it.

Just guessing about stuff is not a good method, and is going to lead you astray.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #223 on: November 09, 2015, 11:47:23 AM »
How do you know science does not deal with the whole of reality. Do you know what the whole of reality is?
Science is a method, and if you have a better method, please share it.
Forget it, BR. He won't answer. He's been asked these self-same questions umpteen times and he never answers.

Ever.

For Hope, R&E is his own personal echo chamber in which to enjoy the sound of his own voice, not engage in discussion (which involves answering simple, straightforward questions).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

NicholasMarks

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #224 on: November 09, 2015, 11:50:04 AM »
The narrow minded cannot see that the science behind the entire universe which defiesour  modern scientists is clearly known and understood by the Creator of the Holy Bible and though we may have difficulty understanding it we are still participants in its wonderful fruits that include resurrection and everlasting life...if we follow its rules.

And you know that for a fact because...........?

I know this for a fact because...science is led by greed. No cash...no science. An all knowing God must know everything there is to know about science and he is saying that everything is energy...just as scientists do but, for no cost at all, Jesus leads us to a nourishing form of that energy which he says will lead us to everlasting life. This must be the epiphany of all science.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 11:51:51 AM by NicholasMarks »