Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?

[Hope]

How do you know it doesn't?

I know this to a certain extent on the back of what scientists I know have told me.  For instance, they say that science can explain how emotions occur - ie what chemical reactions, etc. occur to create them, but that it can't explain the fundamental processes that lead person X to exhibit a given emotion in a certain situation, but lead person Y to exhibit a different emotion in the same situation. 

Similarly, science doesn't attempt to explain why the universe was formed - it only deals with the 'how'.

What method do you use for ascertaining this supposed rest of reality?

A better question might be "What method do you use for ascertaining that this 'supposed rest of reality'" isn't?  In 45-odd years that I've been involved in discussions of this topic, no-one has ever managed to answer this question (and not just 'not to my satisfaction').

[Hope]

I know this for a fact because...science is led by greed.

You what, Nic?  This is possibly the daftest comment I've ever seen on this board.

[Hope]

For Hope, R&E is his own personal echo chamber in which to enjoy the sound of his own voice, not engage in discussion (which involves answering simple, straightforward questions).

Is that why you never engage in discussion, then, Shakes - preferring to assert things with no supporting eveidence attached.

By the way, I trust you are feeling more like your real self this morning.

[Hope]

My life contains zero faith. I have varying amounts of trust, but no faith in anything whatsoever.

Sentence 1 and sentence 2 are contradictory, BR.  Faith and trust are the same thing.

[Shaker]

I know this to a certain extent on the back of what scientists I know have told me.  For instance, they say that science can explain how emotions occur - ie what chemical reactions, etc. occur to create them, but that it can't explain the fundamental processes that lead person X to exhibit a given emotion in a certain situation, but lead person Y to exhibit a different emotion in the same situation. 

Similarly, science doesn't attempt to explain why the universe was formed - it only deals with the 'how'.

Who says there's a why?

A better question might be "What method do you use for ascertaining that this 'supposed rest of reality'" isn't?  In 45-odd years that I've been involved in discussions of this topic, no-one has ever managed to answer this question (and not just 'not to my satisfaction').

No, that's not a better question, that's (a) a dodge and (b) a rewording of your beloved negative proof fallacy which increasingly it seems you can't put fingers to keyboard without.

[Shaker]

For Hope, R&E is his own personal echo chamber in which to enjoy the sound of his own voice, not engage in discussion (which involves answering simple, straightforward questions).

Is that why you never engage in discussion, then, Shakes - preferring to assert things with no supporting eveidence attached.

Any evidence for that assertion? Your assertions just keep on piling up. I can list several off the top of my head and can find many more with the search function, if you like, except that when challenged to provide evidence for them - you know, that thing you always demand of others - you develop a sudden case of Beethoven's ear.

By the way, I trust you are feeling more like your real self this morning.

I'm as impatient with bullshit and with lying, misrepresenting, sanctimonious, question-dodging hypocrites like you, if that's what you mean.

[Outrider]

O, since science and faith address different questions, where is the antithetical-ness you refer to?

If that were the case, which I'd contest, they still wouldn't be compatible which is the point I was making.

As to whether they address different questions, I don't see that they do - religion begs some questions, but is still seeking the same basic information: what is the nature of the reality in which we exist?

O.

[floo]

The narrow minded cannot see that the science behind the entire universe which defiesour  modern scientists is clearly known and understood by the Creator of the Holy Bible and though we may have difficulty understanding it we are still participants in its wonderful fruits that include resurrection and everlasting life...if we follow its rules.

And you know that for a fact because...........?

I know this for a fact because...science is led by greed. No cash...no science. An all knowing God must know everything there is to know about science and he is saying that everything is energy...just as scientists do but, for no cost at all, Jesus leads us to a nourishing form of that energy which he says will lead us to everlasting life. This must be the epiphany of all science.

Well you can't make scientific breakthroughs without the backing of money! You make statements about a deity you can't prove exists!

[Outrider]

I know this to a certain extent on the back of what scientists I know have told me.  For instance, they say that science can explain how emotions occur - ie what chemical reactions, etc. occur to create them, but that it can't explain the fundamental processes that lead person X to exhibit a given emotion in a certain situation, but lead person Y to exhibit a different emotion in the same situation.

Yes, science does more than adequately explain why small differences in the state of complex systems leads to significantly different outcomes - it's called Chaos Theory.

Similarly, science doesn't attempt to explain why the universe was formed - it only deals with the 'how'.

Science doesn't need to explain 'why' the universe was formed until and unless someone comes up with a reason to think it's a valid question. Religion asks 'why is the universe' and begs the question 'what makes you think there's a reason?'

O.

[Outrider]

I know this for a fact because...science is led by greed. No cash...no science.

We can tell because of all the mega-scientist billionaires with their private jets.. oh, wait, no, that's mega-Pastors with their tax-exempt churches...

An all knowing God must know everything there is to know about science and he is saying that everything is energy...just as scientists do but, for no cost at all, Jesus leads us to a nourishing form of that energy which he says will lead us to everlasting life. This must be the epiphany of all science.

So much stupid in one place, you'd think it would collapse under the weight of its own excrescence, but it somehow just keeps on trundling along. An all-knowing God would indeed know everything, if it existed, but there's no reason to think that it does.

Scientists have demonstrated that matter and energy are two forms of the same thing after exhaustive research, and religion has glommed on to that work and pretended that they'd been saying that all along by selectively interpreting vague translations of initial vague spoutings.

As to the idea that energy will lead us to everlasting life, that fundamentally ignores one of the basic precepts of the scientific understanding of energy: entropy.

O.

[Gordon]

Similarly, science doesn't attempt to explain why the universe was formed - it only deals with the 'how'.

Then, as has been pointed out to you before numerous times,  you need to demonstrate that 'why' is a valid question in the first place: that you would really really like there to be a 'why' isn't enough, since without reasonable grounds for asking 'why' to do so is just fallacious nonsense (begging the question and your personal incredulity being the two most obvious fallacies).

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hope,

Sentence 1 and sentence 2 are contradictory, BR.  Faith and trust are the same thing.

No they're not. You "trust" that, say, your car will start tomorrow on the basis of historic evidence, brand reputation etc. That trust may or may not be vindicated by a subsequent event, but you make no claim to an objective fact that it unequivocally will start.

The religious use of "faith" on the other hand tends to entails statements of supposed fact based on the expression of a personal opinion with no attendant argument to take them from the subjective to the objective.

And they're very different things.   

[BeRational]

My life contains zero faith. I have varying amounts of trust, but no faith in anything whatsoever.

Sentence 1 and sentence 2 are contradictory, BR.  Faith and trust are the same thing.

They are most definitely NOT the same thing.

Trust is given based on evidence and reason.

Faith is just given without any need for any evidence or reason.

[ippy]

In any case, none of the gospel writers told us his name or made any claim to be an eyewitness.  The authorship claims were invented later.

PS Actually that's not true - the gospel of Thomas, for instance, has a name on it.  But the Church doesn't accept those.

The other problem with "we have the eyewitnesses" is that Christians never make any attempt to account for all the stuff they choose to ignore.

Truth is people like yourself do not have any idea about Christ, and true believers.

If you read the bible you would know believers deal with reality and fact in their lives. Gods presence, the presence of Christ and the knowledge that the truth changes the person and God speaks to them.

What a CHURCH not built on Spirit and Truth says about books is irrelevant.
Christ and the truth about him impacts on the individual. His truth from God changes the persons and Gods presence and Spirit make the person a new creation.

You look to a written word. The believer has the word within them.

I couldn't help noticing your reference to, "god speaking to them", Sass, hearing voices?
Oh dear.

ippy

[Shaker]

Similarly, science doesn't attempt to explain why the universe was formed - it only deals with the 'how'.

Then, as has been pointed out to you before numerous times,  you need to demonstrate that 'why' is a valid question in the first place: that you would really really like there to be a 'why' isn't enough, since without reasonable grounds for asking 'why' to do so is just fallacious nonsense (begging the question and your personal incredulity being the two most obvious fallacies).

Believers want there to be a why because a why implies purposeful and intentional agency by a conscious agent, which is what they want to be in the universe which in turn is why they're believers in the first place.

[NicholasMarks]

I know this for a fact because...science is led by greed.

You what, Nic?  This is possibly the daftest comment I've ever seen on this board.

I'll say it for you again Hope if you like. Though the general population might be fooled, the entire scientific community is the product of the excesses of the middle classes...Those with so much free time on their hands to think and ponder on these scientific matters. Their university training the result of the wealth of their sponsors...usually their wealthy parents, and the entire scientific process manipulated by the same thinking.

Now...If you recall...Jesus Christ wasn't over pleased with these unearned privileges which denied the common people of the same free time whilst the produce of the sciences are cornered by the greedy merchants for the very purpose of high profits and greed...which keeps the cycle going.

[Outrider]

I'll say it for you again Hope if you like. Though the general population might be fooled, the entire scientific community is the product of the excesses of the middle classes...

I'm middle class, when do I get my excesses?

Those with so much free time on their hands to think and ponder on these scientific matters.

I think you're confusing the middle-classes with the landed gentry, the jobless and, perhaps, students. You don't get to stay middle-class for very long if you aren't working quite hard.

Their university training the result of the wealth of their sponsors...usually their wealthy parents, and the entire scientific process manipulated by the same thinking.

Most people currently in the scientific community in this country went through university when attendance was free, but don't let reality interfere with your spiel.

The scientific process is not manipulated by any particular thinking - individual scientists, the scientific community even might be, but the process is either adhered to or it isn't.

Now...If you recall...Jesus Christ wasn't over pleased with these unearned privileges which denied the common people of the same free time whilst the produce of the sciences are cornered by the greedy merchants for the very purpose of high profits and greed...which keeps the cycle going.

He says, via computer, to the world... 

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NM,

I'll say it for you again Hope if you like. Though the general population might be fooled, the entire scientific community is the product of the excesses of the middle classes...Those with so much free time on their hands to think and ponder on these scientific matters. Their university training the result of the wealth of their sponsors...usually their wealthy parents, and the entire scientific process manipulated by the same thinking.

Now...If you recall...Jesus Christ wasn't over pleased with these unearned privileges which denied the common people of the same free time whilst the produce of the sciences are cornered by the greedy merchants for the very purpose of high profits and greed...which keeps the cycle going.

Now that really is the daftest post ever!

Does not the irony not strike you that it's the very fruits of these pampered fops that mean you have a computer to type on, medicines to cure you, aeroplanes to fly you to your Ibiza raves etc? 

[Jack Knave]

Millions over the generations have proven the veracity of the Gospels...not because they are first hand witnesses of events but because in times of great distress they have put Jesus' word to the test and found the proof for themselves.

Millions over the generations have proven the veracity of the Gospels Qu'ran...not because they are first hand witnesses of events but because in times of great distress they have put Jesus' Mohammed's word to the test and found the proof for themselves...

Millions over the generations have proven the veracity of the Gospels Book of Mormon...not because they are first hand witnesses of events but because in times of great distress they have put Jesus' Joseph Smith's word to the test and found the proof for themselves...

Millions over the generations have proven the veracity of the Gospels Baghavad Gita...not because they are first hand witnesses of events but because in times of great distress they have put Jesus' Krishna's word to the test and found the proof for themselves...

It turns out millions of people can be wrong, particular if those people are desperate, superstitious and uneducated as the majority of these millions over the generations have been.

O.

I did the same with the Harry Potter books!!!

[Jack Knave]

Now we have established that 'faith'  is having trust in things we cannot automatically see the mechanics of and which are hard to understand anyway yet are vital to our existence we can begin seeing that this is the key principle behind the teaching of Almighty God.

He is saying that the mechanics behind the universe are almost impossible to understand but offers us all a great future if we can overcome the demands of evil intent which is the overwhelming ruler over our existence unless we follow Jesus accurately.

Now, modern science and modern politics give the veracity to those words because thanks to the scientific weapons of mass destruction we are teetering on the brink of WW3...which, again we are forewarned about and offered an escape route providing we have accurate faith in resurrection.

Trust is based on personal experience blind faith is for children and adult fools.

[Jack Knave]

I was just wondering what the reason our resident Christians would give for the reason for this action by Christ. How does it fit in with your theology?

The reason Jesus descended into Hades is because he died and this is where all people go after death...unless they have upbuilt within themselves an electric component that has the strength to escape...which, if you recall...is what Jesus did, snatching the keys of life and death from the hands of the keeper of Hades as he did so. Proof that resurrection is possible for us all if we follow the same righteous laws.

So JC did all this whilst he was died?

[Jack Knave]

The narrow minded cannot see that the science behind the entire universe which defiesour  modern scientists is clearly known and understood by the Creator of the Holy Bible and though we may have difficulty understanding it we are still participants in its wonderful fruits that include resurrection and everlasting life...if we follow its rules.

And you know that for a fact because...........?

I know this for a fact because...science is led by greed. No cash...no science. An all knowing God must know everything there is to know about science and he is saying that everything is energy...just as scientists do but, for no cost at all, Jesus leads us to a nourishing form of that energy which he says will lead us to everlasting life. This must be the epiphany of all science.

You sound a bit like an alchemist.

[BashfulAnthony]

For Hope, R&E is his own personal echo chamber in which to enjoy the sound of his own voice, not engage in discussion (which involves answering simple, straightforward questions).

Is that why you never engage in discussion, then, Shakes - preferring to assert things with no supporting eveidence attached.

Any evidence for that assertion? Your assertions just keep on piling up. I can list several off the top of my head and can find many more with the search function, if you like, except that when challenged to provide evidence for them - you know, that thing you always demand of others - you develop a sudden case of Beethoven's ear.

By the way, I trust you are feeling more like your real self this morning.

I'm as impatient with bullshit and with lying, misrepresenting, sanctimonious, question-dodging hypocrites like you, if that's what you mean.

If he didn't, he should have done, because that means you are back to your vitriolic, ungracious, and puerile self.

[Red Giant]

In any case, none of the gospel writers told us his name or made any claim to be an eyewitness.  The authorship claims were invented later.

PS Actually that's not true - the gospel of Thomas, for instance, has a name on it.  But the Church doesn't accept those.

The other problem with "we have the eyewitnesses" is that Christians never make any attempt to account for all the stuff they choose to ignore.

Truth is people like yourself do not have any idea about Christ, and true believers.

If you read the bible you would know believers deal with reality and fact in their lives. Gods presence, the presence of Christ and the knowledge that the truth changes the person and God speaks to them.

What a CHURCH not built on Spirit and Truth says about books is irrelevant.
Christ and the truth about him impacts on the individual. His truth from God changes the persons and Gods presence and Spirit make the person a new creation.

You look to a written word. The believer has the word within them.

It sounds awful.  I live in fear that one day I'll wake up and find I've been bitten by the bug and become a true believer.

[NicholasMarks]

I was just wondering what the reason our resident Christians would give for the reason for this action by Christ. How does it fit in with your theology?

The reason Jesus descended into Hades is because he died and this is where all people go after death...unless they have upbuilt within themselves an electric component that has the strength to escape...which, if you recall...is what Jesus did, snatching the keys of life and death from the hands of the keeper of Hades as he did so. Proof that resurrection is possible for us all if we follow the same righteous laws.

So JC did all this whilst he was died?

That is what the Holy Bible says Jack. The crux being that the universe is the product of an indestructible force...a dynamic energy that is the birth-force behind all life, in fact behind all things, and all science. No need for the vast resources spent on the Hadron Collider...just a few pence spent upon a Holy Bible and a desire to believe what it tells us.