Author Topic: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?  (Read 55763 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #300 on: November 11, 2015, 12:30:16 PM »
That is total GARBAGE! By that token the Islamists who are willing to die for their faith have the 'true' message!
This has been answered over and over. The Christians didn't kill their enemies, they turned the other cheek  ::)
Christians have frequently killed their enemies.

And tortured them first. Including the wrong kinds of Christians.

floo

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #301 on: November 11, 2015, 12:38:31 PM »
That is total GARBAGE! By that token the Islamists who are willing to die for their faith have the 'true' message!
This has been answered over and over. The Christians didn't kill their enemies, they turned the other cheek  ::)
Christians have frequently killed their enemies.

And tortured them first. Including the wrong kinds of Christians.

My oh so holy 'born again' paternal grandmother beat her evil brand of religion into her kids. Her only daughter was beaten so badly for kissing a boy she fancied that she couldn't go to school for three weeks because of the bruises! >:(

Spud

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #302 on: November 11, 2015, 12:44:00 PM »
1. You still haven't excluded the risk that alleged witness reports are a mix of exaggeration and/or lies about the Jesus character. These early Christians are no less susceptible to these risks than are supporters of any controversial figure today.
You can always put the witnesses in prison and see if they confess to exaggeration/lies. Or have them flogged. Paul, Luke and others describe this happening to Christians.

Spud

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #303 on: November 11, 2015, 12:47:23 PM »
That is total GARBAGE! By that token the Islamists who are willing to die for their faith have the 'true' message!
This has been answered over and over. The Christians didn't kill their enemies, they turned the other cheek  ::)
Christians have frequently killed their enemies.
If you mean soldiers who are Christian, yes. Islamists kill innocent people though, right?

Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #304 on: November 11, 2015, 12:52:21 PM »
If you mean soldiers who are Christian, yes.
Not just those - very far from it. There are also those Christians who tortured, maimed and murdered others for not being Christian at all or for being the wrong brand of Christian in their eyes.
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Islamists kill innocent people though, right?
Christians likewise.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #305 on: November 11, 2015, 12:55:44 PM »
That is total GARBAGE! By that token the Islamists who are willing to die for their faith have the 'true' message!
This has been answered over and over. The Christians didn't kill their enemies, they turned the other cheek  ::)
Christians have frequently killed their enemies.

And tortured them first. Including the wrong kinds of Christians.

My oh so holy 'born again' paternal grandmother beat her evil brand of religion into her kids. Her only daughter was beaten so badly for kissing a boy she fancied that she couldn't go to school for three weeks because of the bruises! >:(

Nothing to do with religion.  She was clearly having mental difficulties;  or maybe it was just a police matter.
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #306 on: November 11, 2015, 12:58:52 PM »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Spud

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #307 on: November 11, 2015, 01:48:11 PM »
If you mean soldiers who are Christian, yes.
Not just those - very far from it. There are also those Christians who tortured, maimed and murdered others for not being Christian at all or for being the wrong brand of Christian in their eyes.
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
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Quote
Islamists kill innocent people though, right?
Christians likewise.
I think one problem with Islamist terrorism is that they perceive that their countries are being attacked by the West. They believe they are defending their families.

Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #308 on: November 11, 2015, 01:50:33 PM »
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
1. No True Scotsman fallacy.

2. That's only.your opinion, not theirs. Theirs was that they were Christians acting in defence of Christianity as they saw it by eliminating 'heresy.'
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Spud

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #309 on: November 11, 2015, 01:57:25 PM »
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
1. No True Scotsman fallacy.

2. That's only.your opinion, not theirs. Theirs was that they were Christians acting in defence of Christianity as they saw it by eliminating 'heresy.'

Objective morality. God says you shall not kill. You may come back with, what about the Canaanites if you want.

Outrider

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #310 on: November 11, 2015, 01:59:25 PM »
If you mean soldiers who are Christian, yes.
Not just those - very far from it. There are also those Christians who tortured, maimed and murdered others for not being Christian at all or for being the wrong brand of Christian in their eyes.
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
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Quote
Islamists kill innocent people though, right?
Christians likewise.
I think one problem with Islamist terrorism is that they perceive that their countries are being attacked by the West. They believe they are defending their families.

And the Christian fundamentalists trying to turn the US military into 'God's Own Army' don't feel the same way?

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Gordon

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #311 on: November 11, 2015, 02:06:43 PM »
1. You still haven't excluded the risk that alleged witness reports are a mix of exaggeration and/or lies about the Jesus character. These early Christians are no less susceptible to these risks than are supporters of any controversial figure today.
You can always put the witnesses in prison and see if they confess to exaggeration/lies. Or have them flogged. Paul, Luke and others describe this happening to Christians.

I'm not so sure that abusing people would be a good way to get to the truth, Spud, especially if those being abused are highly credulous and there is the risk that they have themselves fallen (albeit innocently) for the propaganda of others. Nope: this approach wouldn't work at all.

floo

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #312 on: November 11, 2015, 02:06:45 PM »
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
1. No True Scotsman fallacy.

2. That's only.your opinion, not theirs. Theirs was that they were Christians acting in defence of Christianity as they saw it by eliminating 'heresy.'

Objective morality. God says you shall not kill. You may come back with, what about the Canaanites if you want.

The deity wants to take its own advice, before instructing humans! >:(

Outrider

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #313 on: November 11, 2015, 02:16:18 PM »
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
1. No True Scotsman fallacy.

2. That's only.your opinion, not theirs. Theirs was that they were Christians acting in defence of Christianity as they saw it by eliminating 'heresy.'

Objective morality. God says you shall not kill. You may come back with, what about the Canaanites if you want.

Actually, in the original, God is alleged to have said 'Thou shalt not murder', a rather more nuanced idea.

O.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #314 on: November 11, 2015, 02:56:06 PM »
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
1. No True Scotsman fallacy.

2. That's only.your opinion, not theirs. Theirs was that they were Christians acting in defence of Christianity as they saw it by eliminating 'heresy.'

Objective morality. God says you shall not kill. You may come back with, what about the Canaanites if you want.
No, I'll come back with "Objective morality? What objective morality?"
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #315 on: November 11, 2015, 03:10:43 PM »
Not applicable since that is non-Christian behavior.
1. No True Scotsman fallacy.

2. That's only.your opinion, not theirs. Theirs was that they were Christians acting in defence of Christianity as they saw it by eliminating 'heresy.'

Objective morality. God says you shall not kill. You may come back with, what about the Canaanites if you want.

The deity wants to take its own advice, before instructing humans! >:(

How can He take His own advice, if He doesn't exist?  Never thought of that, did you!   ;D
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Hope

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #316 on: November 11, 2015, 05:45:44 PM »
If you mean soldiers who are Christian, yes.
Not just those - very far from it. There are also those Christians who tortured, maimed and murdered others for not being Christian at all or for being the wrong brand of Christian in their eyes.
Can you provide a New Testament reference to the teaching - either of Jesus or any one of the apostles, that suggests that this acceptable Christian behaviour?

If you think about it, your position is no different from me saying that atheism involves its adherents being bigoted, rude, arrogant, liars and childish on the grounds of my having met atheists over the last 60-odd years - both F2F and virtually - who have exhibited 2 or more of these characteristics.

I am aware that actions often speak loude than words, but there is also a place for discernment and understanding whether someone's behaviour actually matches the principles they claim to be adhering to.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #317 on: November 11, 2015, 06:02:55 PM »
Can you provide a New Testament reference to the teaching - either of Jesus or any one of the apostles, that suggests that this acceptable Christian behaviour?
No, but then that goes for a hell of a lot of things that Christians do and purport to believe.

Just like with Spud earlier this is of course another from your vast arsenal of logical fallacies, this one of course being the old favourite, the No True Scotsman fallacy.

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If you think about it, your position is no different from me saying that atheism involves its adherents being bigoted, rude, arrogant, liars and childish on the grounds of my having met atheists over the last 60-odd years - both F2F and virtually - who have exhibited 2 or more of these characteristics.
Perhaps if you'd thought about it a good deal more you'd realise that there's no creed or set of rules/commandments that atheists are supposed to follow. Lack of belief in gods is the sole "qualification" for atheism/being an atheist, whereas a Christian behaving in a way allegedly contrary to somebody's interpretation of what Jesus allegedly taught is a hypocrite.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jeremyp

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #318 on: November 11, 2015, 07:10:27 PM »
That is total GARBAGE! By that token the Islamists who are willing to die for their faith have the 'true' message!
This has been answered over and over. The Christians didn't kill their enemies, they turned the other cheek  ::)
Christians have frequently killed their enemies.
If you mean soldiers who are Christian, yes. Islamists kill innocent people though, right?
We've only just had bonfire night, a festival rooted in the execution of Christians by other Christians merely for being the wrong kind. Guy Fawkes wasn't innocent but many of the Catholics executed by the Protestant regime at the time were.
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jeremyp

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #319 on: November 11, 2015, 07:11:33 PM »
Nothing to do with religion.
Is it ever?
Apparently yes if the religion in question is not Christianity.
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Outrider

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #320 on: November 11, 2015, 07:31:22 PM »
If you think about it, your position is no different from me saying that atheism involves its adherents being bigoted, rude, arrogant, liars and childish on the grounds of my having met atheists over the last 60-odd years - both F2F and virtually - who have exhibited 2 or more of these characteristics.

There are undoubtedly some atheists who are unmitigated arseholes, I don't think anyone's denying that. We wouldn't deny that they were atheists, either, just like we don't deny that Stalin or Mao were atheists when that gets thrown at us.

Hitler, though, was a Christian. Torquemada was a Christian. There have, through the ages, been any number of Christian douchebags who have tortured, murdered, enslaved and raped.

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I am aware that actions often speak loude than words, but there is also a place for discernment and understanding whether someone's behaviour actually matches the principles they claim to be adhering to.

But the likes of the Westboro' Baptists and the KKK and the American Tea Party and the Christian far-right groups in Europe, and the Nazis all performed and perform their various acts of hatred in spite of, or because of, their professed devotion to Christianity.

Their actions don't match up to the the principles you adhere to, or the principles you think are espoused in the Big Boy's Book of Jewish Bed-Time Stories, but you aren't the arbiter of what's 'true' Christianity and what isn't. In the absence of any reliable information, it's impossible to distinguish with any authority between rival claims, they're all equally uninformed and equally untestable.

Christians are the people that accept the idea that Jesus is divine, and Christianity is the sum of the acts they have done in that understanding, because of that motivation. You might not like that, but that's reality.

O.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #321 on: November 11, 2015, 09:09:59 PM »
Nothing to do with religion.
Is it ever?
Apparently yes if the religion in question is not Christianity.

If only we had a symbol for yawning.
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

jeremyp

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #322 on: November 11, 2015, 09:11:55 PM »
Nothing to do with religion.
Is it ever?
Apparently yes if the religion in question is not Christianity.

If only we had a symbol for yawning.
Nobody makes you come here. If you're bored, go and do something more interesting.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #323 on: November 11, 2015, 09:38:04 PM »
Nothing to do with religion.
Is it ever?
Apparently yes if the religion in question is not Christianity.

If only we had a symbol for yawning.
Nobody makes you come here. If you're bored, go and do something more interesting.

Well, let's see: what could I do that's less boring than reading your posts?  I know:  I could go and count bricks.  That would certainly be more interesting than your posts.    ;D
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Why Did Christ Descend into Hades?
« Reply #324 on: November 11, 2015, 09:38:31 PM »
Off you pop, then.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.