How to protect children/vulnerable from Christian emotional abuse?

[floo]

deleted

[ippy]

Having had experience of this type of abuse in my childhood, and knowing it goes on today in extreme religious households, I believe children and the vulnerable need protecting from it. Telling a child they will burn in hell if they don't get 'saved' is wicked. I know for a fact it can cause trauma. When our children were young they opted of their own volition to attend church and Sunday school. It was only years later that our youngest girl revealed she had been told her unbelieving parents would burn in hell. She was instructed that if she informed us the Sunday School teacher had told her that she would also burn in hell! We wondered why she had so many nightmares in those days!

Mind you my husband and I were extremely remiss not to had found out exactly what our kids were being taught! We would have removed them immediately from the evil clutches of those nasty people.

I am on another religious forum where some of the posters claim to be in their very early teens. If that is true it is frightening the sort of extreme Christian dogma they come out with. One can only think they have been severely brain washed by their parents and churches.

I think it should be a specific offence to target kids with that sort of evil garbage, for which there isn't the slightest shred of proof to substantiate it.

So I'm told the Jesuits say, "give me a child to the age of seven etc etc", makes you wonder?

It starts like that with all religions, get em while they're young, preferably before they reach an age where they are able to reason for themselves and start to challenge, what a shabby lot.

ippy 

[floo]

Having had experience of this type of abuse in my childhood, and knowing it goes on today in extreme religious households, I believe children and the vulnerable need protecting from it. Telling a child they will burn in hell if they don't get 'saved' is wicked. I know for a fact it can cause trauma. When our children were young they opted of their own volition to attend church and Sunday school. It was only years later that our youngest girl revealed she had been told her unbelieving parents would burn in hell. She was instructed that if she informed us the Sunday School teacher had told her that she would also burn in hell! We wondered why she had so many nightmares in those days!

Mind you my husband and I were extremely remiss not to had found out exactly what our kids were being taught! We would have removed them immediately from the evil clutches of those nasty people.

I am on another religious forum where some of the posters claim to be in their very early teens. If that is true it is frightening the sort of extreme Christian dogma they come out with. One can only think they have been severely brain washed by their parents and churches.

I think it should be a specific offence to target kids with that sort of evil garbage, for which there isn't the slightest shred of proof to substantiate it.

So I'm told the Jesuits say, "give me a child to the age of seven etc etc", makes you wonder?

It starts like that with all religions, get em while they're young, preferably before they reach an age where they are able to reason for themselves and start to challenge, what a shabby lot.

ippy

Whilst I wouldn't claim to have been first in the queue when intelligence was handed out, I have always been one of the awkward squad. It is therefore not surprising that in spite of my religious upbringing I started to question my faith, and when the answers didn't make any sense I lost it.

[ippy]

Having had experience of this type of abuse in my childhood, and knowing it goes on today in extreme religious households, I believe children and the vulnerable need protecting from it. Telling a child they will burn in hell if they don't get 'saved' is wicked. I know for a fact it can cause trauma. When our children were young they opted of their own volition to attend church and Sunday school. It was only years later that our youngest girl revealed she had been told her unbelieving parents would burn in hell. She was instructed that if she informed us the Sunday School teacher had told her that she would also burn in hell! We wondered why she had so many nightmares in those days!

Mind you my husband and I were extremely remiss not to had found out exactly what our kids were being taught! We would have removed them immediately from the evil clutches of those nasty people.

I am on another religious forum where some of the posters claim to be in their very early teens. If that is true it is frightening the sort of extreme Christian dogma they come out with. One can only think they have been severely brain washed by their parents and churches.

I think it should be a specific offence to target kids with that sort of evil garbage, for which there isn't the slightest shred of proof to substantiate it.

So I'm told the Jesuits say, "give me a child to the age of seven etc etc", makes you wonder?

It starts like that with all religions, get em while they're young, preferably before they reach an age where they are able to reason for themselves and start to challenge, what a shabby lot.

ippy

Whilst I wouldn't claim to have been first in the queue when intelligence was handed out, I have always been one of the awkward squad. It is therefore not surprising that in spite of my religious upbringing I started to question my faith, and when the answers didn't make any sense I lost it.

Again so I'm told, statistically it's the youngest in most families that turn out to be the rebels, I'm the youngest in my family.

I do one or two protest marches or meetings in support of the BHA or the NSS most years.

I realised Sunday school, at about age 12, was a load of highly suspect, man made old tosh, always talked in class when there and always got chucked out, great.

I've done my best to bring up my two boys as neutrals they're both in their mid thirties now and neither are even a little bit interested in any kind of religion, thank goodness, if they are it doesn't show, neither of them speak about it.

ippy

[Hope]

I suppose the answer needs to be far wider-reaching than 'Christian' extremism, Floo.  I can think of young people,bought up by fundamentalist Muslim, Hindu and atheist parents, who have exhibited far greater damage in later life than any from Christian extremist thinking that I've heard of. 

In a way, I think that the appearance of this topic on the 'Christian Topic' board is misleading and should probably be on something like the Religion and Ethics board (though that could be a problem since some would then argue that it exonerates atheism).  After all, Jesus' teaching - in fact,the whole of the New Testament - as well as the Bhavadgita and the Qur'an, deals with the route that people chose to take in life very differently from the extreme forms that many such extremist groups teach.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I realised Sunday school, at about age 12, was a load of highly suspect, man made old tosh, always talked in class when there and always got chucked out, great.

I gave up sunday school when I was 10 but then returned to church when I realised secular humanism was a load of highly suspect, man made old tosh.

[Rhiannon]

I do and don't agree with you, Hope. Any kind of extremism is damaging to a child - political, animal rights, even having the kind of parents that obsess over image and stuff. But Fooo is within her rights to ask about the damage specifically caused by the 'your loved ones will burn in Hell' extremism associated with some kinds of Christianity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Having had experience of this type of abuse in my childhood, and knowing it goes on today in extreme religious households, I believe children and the vulnerable need protecting from it. Telling a child they will burn in hell if they don't get 'saved' is wicked. I know for a fact it can cause trauma. When our children were young they opted of their own volition to attend church and Sunday school. It was only years later that our youngest girl revealed she had been told her unbelieving parents would burn in hell. She was instructed that if she informed us the Sunday School teacher had told her that she would also burn in hell! We wondered why she had so many nightmares in those days!

Mind you my husband and I were extremely remiss not to had found out exactly what our kids were being taught! We would have removed them immediately from the evil clutches of those nasty people.

I am on another religious forum where some of the posters claim to be in their very early teens. If that is true it is frightening the sort of extreme Christian dogma they come out with. One can only think they have been severely brain washed by their parents and churches.

I think it should be a specific offence to target kids with that sort of evil garbage, for which there isn't the slightest shred of proof to substantiate it.

So I'm told the Jesuits say, "give me a child to the age of seven etc etc", makes you wonder?

It starts like that with all religions, get em while they're young, preferably before they reach an age where they are able to reason for themselves and start to challenge, what a shabby lot.

ippy

Whilst I wouldn't claim to have been first in the queue when intelligence was handed out, I have always been one of the awkward squad. It is therefore not surprising that in spite of my religious upbringing I started to question my faith, and when the answers didn't make any sense I lost it.

Again so I'm told, statistically it's the youngest in most families that turn out to be the rebels, I'm the youngest in my family.

I do one or two protest marches or meetings in support of the BHA or the NSS most years.

I think you've missed the bus Ippy, it's been a secular humanist society for decades.

[ippy]

I realised Sunday school, at about age 12, was a load of highly suspect, man made old tosh, always talked in class when there and always got chucked out, great.

I gave up sunday school when I was 10 but then returned to church when I realised secular humanism was a load of highly suspect, man made old tosh.

But I'd been thinking of giving up Sunday school when I was 9, having allready known about Vlad getting the wrong end of the stick.

ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

I do and don't agree with you, Hope. Any kind of extremism is damaging to a child - political, animal rights, even having the kind of parents that obsess over image and stuff. But Fooo is within her rights to ask about the damage specifically caused by the 'your loved ones will burn in Hell' extremism associated with some kinds of Christianity.

That's right - the issue here isn't merely about religion, let alone simply christianity. The point is that parents have an exception level of power over their children in terms of potential indoctrination, and parents need to recognise their responsibilities that go along with that power.

To my mind, as a parent, it is essential to understand that your children aren't simply 'mini-mes', impressionable minds to be shaped to think exactly as you do. No, they are people in their own right and the key responsibility as a parent is to create an environment that allows those young people to become themselves, whether or not that is similar to their parents.

At our welcoming ceremony for our own children we had a reading from Kalil Gibran, which put this point in a much more eloquent way than I could:

'Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.'

There is an equally fantastic piece on marriage which we had at our wedding.

[trippymonkey]

Actual physical abuse can & usually WILL heal but mental abuse can be forever & is worse than any smack !!!!

Nick

[floo]

I suppose the answer needs to be far wider-reaching than 'Christian' extremism, Floo.  I can think of young people,bought up by fundamentalist Muslim, Hindu and atheist parents, who have exhibited far greater damage in later life than any from Christian extremist thinking that I've heard of. 

In a way, I think that the appearance of this topic on the 'Christian Topic' board is misleading and should probably be on something like the Religion and Ethics board (though that could be a problem since some would then argue that it exonerates atheism).  After all, Jesus' teaching - in fact,the whole of the New Testament - as well as the Bhavadgita and the Qur'an, deals with the route that people chose to take in life very differently from the extreme forms that many such extremist groups teach.

I realise other faiths, especially Islam, have extremists and their nastiness should be dealt with severely too. However, as my experience is of Christian extremism I felt it right to put it on this board. No doubt the MODs will move the thread if they think necessary.

[Hope]

Actual physical abuse can & usually WILL heal but mental abuse can be forever & is worse than any smack !!!!

Nick

Sadly, some groups of 'child protection' folk don't seem to recognise this!

[Hope]

At our welcoming ceremony for our own children we had a reading from Kalil Gibran, which put this point in a much more eloquent way than I could:

'Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.'

There is an equally fantastic piece on marriage which we had at our wedding.

Sounds good, PD - but then there are many different passages in the Bible that reflect the same ideas.

[floo]

Actual physical abuse can & usually WILL heal but mental abuse can be forever & is worse than any smack !!!!

Nick

A light smack is not abusive, imo, but thrashing the living daylights out of a kid, which was acceptable when I was young, certainly is. I agree the pain of a thrashing, of which I have had very many in my youth, does fade, but emotional abuse can last a lifetime.

[ippy]

I suppose the answer needs to be far wider-reaching than 'Christian' extremism, Floo.  I can think of young people,bought up by fundamentalist Muslim, Hindu and atheist parents, who have exhibited far greater damage in later life than any from Christian extremist thinking that I've heard of. 

In a way, I think that the appearance of this topic on the 'Christian Topic' board is misleading and should probably be on something like the Religion and Ethics board (though that could be a problem since some would then argue that it exonerates atheism).  After all, Jesus' teaching - in fact,the whole of the New Testament - as well as the Bhavadgita and the Qur'an, deals with the route that people chose to take in life very differently from the extreme forms that many such extremist groups teach.

A least the atheist parents in  general don't tell lies about things that they nor anyone else can possibly know.

I doubt very much that religious believers point out the difference between beliefs and established facts and if they do I'll take a bet it's kept  low key.

ippy   

[Hope]

A least the atheist parents in  general don't tell lies about things that they nor anyone else can possibly know.

None of the atheist parents I referred to ever admitted that there was any possibility of a deity, ippy.  It's only enlightened atheists as we have a few of here, who will teach their children that they believe that there is no deity, but have no evidence for thier belief.

I doubt very much that religious believers point out the difference between beliefs and established facts and if they do I'll take a bet it's kept  low key.

ippy

Can't  say that I've met any Christian parents who keep it low key.  But generally, they teach that what you refer to as 'facts' are no more than scientific beliefs since, as I've said before, science is a human construct.

[floo]

A least the atheist parents in  general don't tell lies about things that they nor anyone else can possibly know.

None of the atheist parents I referred to ever admitted that there was any possibility of a deity, ippy.  It's only enlightened atheists as we have a few of here, who will teach their children that they believe that there is no deity, but have no evidence for thier belief.

I doubt very much that religious believers point out the difference between beliefs and established facts and if they do I'll take a bet it's kept  low key.

ippy

Can't  say that I've met any Christian parents who keep it low key.  But generally, they teach that what you refer to as 'facts' are no more than scientific beliefs since, as I've said before, science is a human construct.

But science has much more going for it than religion, which is a human construct. Good grief, if we were relying on the deity to help human knowledge to progress we would still be milling around the primeval swamp!

[Hope]

Really floo? You claim your pentecostal parents abused you with the, you are going to hell, thingy and you turn around and let your daughters be abused by that Pentecostalism? Something stinks with your story.

mtj, I believe that Floo's daughter is Anglican.

[Hope]

But science has much more going for it than religion, which is a human construct. Good grief, if we were relying on the deity to help human knowledge to progress we would still be milling around the primeval swamp!

And in what way is science not a human construct?  Everything is dependent on human theorising which is thenconfirmed by human experimentation.  On the other hand, do you have any valid evidence that religion is a human construct?

By the way, who were the early educators, medics and scientists?

[ippy]

I doubt very much that religious believers point out the difference between beliefs and established facts and if they do I'll take a bet it's kept  low key.

ippy
Can't say that I've met any Christian parents who keep it low key.  But generally, they teach that what you refer to as 'facts' are no more than scientific beliefs since, as I've said before, science is a human construct.

As you know, playing with words again, keeping religion low key was not being inferred, I was referring to the big world outside of the now, all but defunct, mythical, magic and superstitious parts of any religious belief.





======
Quote from: ippy on October 30, 2015, 03:35:11 PM
A least the atheist parents in general don't tell lies about things that they nor anyone else can possibly know.
None of the atheist parents I referred to ever admitted that there was any possibility of a deity, ippy.  It's only enlightened atheists as we have a few of here, who will teach their children that they believe that there is no deity, but have no evidence for their belief.

Atheism isn’t a belief and why would anyone not believe in something that’s not there in the first place, have to be referenced from this something, presumably inside your mind, that’s not there to be referenced from.

In short these gods of yours are not there to not be believed in. (There is no credible evidence that supports this god idea of yours).
 
As you know Hope, no matter how painful it might be for you, non-belief is the default position and it’s for you and your fellow travellers to prove your case, and the best of luck to you there. 

ippy

[ippy]

But science has much more going for it than religion, which is a human construct. Good grief, if we were relying on the deity to help human knowledge to progress we would still be milling around the primeval swamp!

And in what way is science not a human construct?  Everything is dependent on human theorising which is thenconfirmed by human experimentation.  On the other hand, do you have any valid evidence that religion is a human construct?

By the way, who were the early educators, medics and scientists?

The early educators medics and scientists were usually religious people, isn't it ironic, they the religious, they have spawned the very thing, science, that is now assuredly bit by bit or gap by gap if you like, burying them.

ippy   

[Hope]

As you know, playing with words again, keeping religion low key was not being inferred, I was referring to the big world outside of the now, all but defunct, mythical, magic and superstitious parts of any religious belief.

What made you think I was referring to their keeping religion low-key, ippy?  I simply used your own wording in my sentence, with 'it' having the same subject as in your post.  I'm afraid that trying to score points by misrepresenting what I write does you no favours.

[Sassy]

Having had experience of this type of abuse in my childhood, and knowing it goes on today in extreme religious households, I believe children and the vulnerable need protecting from it. Telling a child they will burn in hell if they don't get 'saved' is wicked. I know for a fact it can cause trauma. When our children were young they opted of their own volition to attend church and Sunday school. It was only years later that our youngest girl revealed she had been told her unbelieving parents would burn in hell. She was instructed that if she informed us the Sunday School teacher had told her that she would also burn in hell! We wondered why she had so many nightmares in those days!

I don't believe you. I really don't. It shouts you want attention. Can we have proof. I am being honest and sincere here.

Mind you my husband and I were extremely remiss not to had found out exactly what our kids were being taught! We would have removed them immediately from the evil clutches of those nasty people.

Give us the church name and Sunday school. I will visit and find other children now adults of your childs age and see if it really happened. We have to be honest and I don't believe you. Where is the proof?

I am on another religious forum where some of the posters claim to be in their very early teens. If that is true it is frightening the sort of extreme Christian dogma they come out with. One can only think they have been severely brain washed by their parents and churches.

Ah you can send us the name of the forum and I can check it for myself. Could be your bias is getting in the way would help establish the credence of your claim.

I think it should be a specific offence to target kids with that sort of evil garbage, for which there isn't the slightest shred of proof to substantiate it.

A bit like your claims... not the slightest shred of prood to substantiate it. Give us the proof. Show us the posts and the threads so we can see for ourselves. I just cannot believe what you say unless you do. All I want is evidence and proof. I can find that if you give me the information. What I would find suspicious was if you said the Church and Sunday school no longer existed. You can still give us the name and address and I can check through the records and contact some of the old members.

[Hope]

The early educators medics and scientists were usually religious people, isn't it ironic, they the religious, they have spawned the very thing, science, that is now assuredly bit by bit or gap by gap if you like, burying them.

ippy   

Ironically, the evidence isn't that science is is burying religion, but humanism and atheism.  After all, there are relatively few atheist scentists - the majority are agnostic if they aren't religious.

Doubt whether this kind of information is avaiable, but it would be interesting to know what proportion of BHA (and similar groups worldwide) membership are scientists.