Author Topic: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:  (Read 33094 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2015, 09:21:08 PM »
I think Jesus was probably crucified for being a total pain in the backside where the religious mob of the day were concerned.
I understand that the historical records back both this opinion and the fact that other Jewish rebels were executed for this reason.

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The resurrection, if the guy was truly dead, is complete fantasy! No one comes back to life once they are dead.
This only applies if the person is human and only human.  Since science only deals in the physical, there is no way that it can prove (or disprove) the existence of any additional elements of reality.


Just to note that history as a study only deals in the material as well.
citation?

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2015, 09:47:29 PM »
Hi Prof,

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I think the point here is that it is perfectly plausible, based on the evidence, to make a case that Jesus never existed, even as a person as described in the bible (if you take out the mystic bits) - there is simply too little evidence to be certain. Now that is not to say that he didn't exist, but the lack of evidence, sufficient to allow some scholars to conclude he didn't exist really makes it difficult to accept all the icing on the cake stuff.

If we can't even be sure he actually existed then the notion that he acted as he did (the miraculous stuff) is very much less credible again.

There's too little to go on to have anything but a hunch, but mine is that it's entirely possible that the story was based at least on a real person - much as the King Arthur and Robin Hood stories may have been - and then much embellishment occurred with the re-telling. The difference though is that - for the religious - it matters. In fact it really, really matters that Jesus the man/god was real, which is why they set the evidence bar so low for that story but not for the others.

As  I have said before, and firmly believe to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, the bible is nothing more than a two thousand year old game of Chinese whispers.

A good analogy.

It is not a good analogy at all:  it is an infantile cheap shot.

If anyone knows what a cheap shot is you do - you have taken enough of them to be the Forum's expert on cheap shots, except for one other and you run him a very very close second.

How does it feel to have a cheap shot taken at you instead of you taking them at others.

Suck it up - if you bv can't take it don't dish it out!

You would also, from your reactions to posts that you don't like, be the expert on infantile reactions.

Did somebody say something, or was I hearing the kids next door, babbling?   :)

Such an adult response. NOT! But then what else did I expect!

Why do you not go back to wherever you have been for the past week or so! The level of posting has risen exponentially diring your absence and has, on you return, dropped like a stone.

There was a guy on here, with a funny name, who said he would never post to me again. He didn't keep his word;  but then I never thought he had enough control to.  You seem a bit like him...        :D
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2015, 09:53:37 PM »
Citation to Vlad, every university history course in the UK.

You got a supernaturalistic method yet?

jeremyp

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2015, 10:41:36 PM »
Instead they relied on oral tradition which had a very defined way of ensuring the accuracy of what it transmitted.

Which demonstrably didn't work in the case of Christianity (check out the differences between the synoptic gospels and John for evidence).

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Even if that is over-pessimistic, I doubt whether the early days of literacy had a better track-record than orality.
And this is just wishful thinking on your part.
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jeremyp

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2015, 10:48:40 PM »
Are you suggesting that Tacitus and Josephus would have hunted out domestic servants and slaves (who made up the bulk of the church in the first 100 years or so of Christianity) to ask them about the founder of their faith.
First of all why not? Both of them where fairly good historians.

Second of all, "the bulk" is not everybody, It should be clear, even to you, that some Christians were well educated.

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In view of who they were and who they wrote for, I'd suggest that their main sources would have been other Romans, especially those in authority.
Suggest away. How about some solid evidence for one of your suggestions?
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jeremyp

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2015, 10:53:08 PM »
I will use what historical argument exists as and where it's appropriate
History is a naturalistic discipline. Claiming that something is historical because Jesus is God is not doing history.

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so I will refer to literary records that refer to the crucifixion of someone deemed by the Jewish leaders to be dangerous to the Jews, and point out that other literary records associate that death with a reported resurrection that occurred on the 3rd day after said crucifixion.
As long as you recognise that the said literary records lose all historical credibility by claiming that a dead man came alive again.
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jeremyp

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2015, 11:03:46 PM »
Are you claiming that you witnessed your father suffering a hernia even though you weren't alive at the time? Or are you claiming that you witnessed him recounting the story at a later date? There's a difference.
Obviously, the latter, but I am able to attest to the veracity of his attestation as a result of certain verbal and physical evidences.  My point to NS was that one doesn't HAVE to have been present in order to attest to something's veracity.
You can only attest to what you have witnessed. You did not witness the hernia happening. You can attest to the fact that your father said he had a hernia. You can attest to the fact that he was generally truthful. You can attest to any physical symptoms you may have witnessed but you cannot attest to the original event because you weren't there.

In the case of a hernia, this is not a big problem. However, supposing all the other facts were the same but we were talking about your father's trip to heaven in 1940 riding on the shoulders of a blue pixie, what then?

Jesus resurrecting is more in the blue pixie realm than the hernia realm.

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Scholars have only pinpointed certain passages within their reports as possibly having been interpolated by later Christians, and those passages don't include all the references to Christ.
Is that what you think? Clearly you haven't even read the passages in question.
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jeremyp

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2015, 11:11:51 PM »

 . . . and return to the serious work of determining which biscuit is superior*.

O.

* That's not really much of a discussion, it's obvious chocolate hob-nobs because no-one can disprove the claim.


Rubbish! Garibaldi's by a country mile! With Custard Creams a close second, maybe Chocolate Hob-Nobs third!

No, plain chocolate hob nobs are the best excepting possibly bourbons.
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jeremyp

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2015, 11:21:36 PM »
I am sure there are specific websites that the ranking is discussed
It's November 6th so quite topical. Guy Fawkes was hung, drawn and quartered along with his co-conspirators. That could be pretty grisly depending how long the hanging lasted for. Generally, you hoped you would be dead or at least unconscious by the end of the hanging phase, otherwise, you would be fully conscious when they castrated and disemboweled you.
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Gonnagle

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2015, 10:40:10 AM »
Dear Whatever,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4q3WlM9rCI

Just saying like!! no sorry Erhman is saying, hey!! it makes a change from me quoting wee Albert ;)

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2015, 01:32:37 PM »
I am sure there are specific websites that the ranking is discussed
It's November 6th so quite topical. Guy Fawkes was hung, drawn and quartered along with his co-conspirators. That could be pretty grisly depending how long the hanging lasted for. Generally, you hoped you would be dead or at least unconscious by the end of the hanging phase, otherwise, you would be fully conscious when they castrated and disemboweled you.
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Enki

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #86 on: November 07, 2015, 04:58:27 PM »
Dear Whatever,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4q3WlM9rCI

Just saying like!! no sorry Erhman is saying, hey!! it makes a change from me quoting wee Albert ;)

Gonnagle.

And I would basically agree with Erhman here. However the debate on this thread seems to also revolve around the resurrection of Jesus. You may find Ehrman's views on this(and also whether Jesus saw himself as God) particularly interesting. The whole interview is only 15 mins. long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxiNy8mwHqM
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Hope

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2015, 05:18:00 PM »
Also of course you were getting the information directly - straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
One or both of them might have spoken to the centurion on duty at the time, or one of his squad.  We have no idea how old they were in c. 30AD, nor do we have any idea how old they were when they died.

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Hope

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2015, 05:21:07 PM »
As  I have said before, and firmly believe to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, the bible is nothing more than a two thousand year old game of Chinese whispers.
In a sense, I would agree, Matt - as I too have said before; except that 1st Century 'Chinese Whispers' would have been have been a vastly different 'game to that played in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries.
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Hope

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2015, 05:24:25 PM »
It is not a good analogy at all:  it is an infantile cheap shot.
BA, I'd agree with the section I've underlined; I'd disagree with the other half though.  It isn't a cheap shot - rather its a 21st century, highly literate poster judging a largely oral culture through the understanding of a literate culture.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2015, 05:26:30 PM »
Also of course you were getting the information directly - straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
One or both of them might have spoken to the centurion on duty at the time, or one of his squad.  We have no idea how old they were in c. 30AD, nor do we have any idea how old they were when they died.
Firstly that is pure conjecture, completely unevidenced.

Secondly this is exceptionally unlikely as the writings are from AD90-110 so even if the centurians were just 20 at the time of Jesus' death they would therefore be somewhere between 80 and 100 by the time of writing. Theoretically possible but very, very, very unlikely.

Hope

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #91 on: November 07, 2015, 05:44:26 PM »
Are you suggesting that Tacitus and Josephus would have hunted out domestic servants and slaves (who made up the bulk of the church in the first 100 years or so of Christianity) to ask them about the founder of their faith.
First of all why not? Both of them where fairly good historians.
If you call propagandists 'good' historians.  Most of their respective works is made up of the reporting of strategic events such as political situations, imperial and military events - ie not the everyday, life on the street things.  Yes, not all the Christians in Rome were slaves and servants though Paul's letter to the Romans tends to imply this kind of person.  The richer folk were the likes of Prisca and Aquila, who were tentmakers/traders, and generally non-Roman.

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Second of all, "the bulk" is not everybody, It should be clear, even to you, that some Christians were well educated.
Actually, people can lead a group, run a business and do a whole host of complex things without being 'well-educated', jeremy.  Educated, perhaps.  Jewish children - male and female - were usually educated in basic life skills to the equivalent of our middle-school level.  It was only the nhigh-flyers who went on to higher, generally theological and other areas of education.

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Suggest away. How about some solid evidence for one of your suggestions?
Well, as I have already pointed out, much of their material relates to military, political and other issues.  That suggests that their contacts and sources were from the higher eschelons of society.
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Hope

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2015, 05:54:56 PM »
Also of course you were getting the information directly - straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
Quote
One or both of them might have spoken to the centurion on duty at the time, or one of his squad.  We have no idea how old they were in c. 30AD, nor do we have any idea how old they were when they died.
Firstly that is pure conjecture, completely unevidenced.
But no more conjecture than anything you have written, PD.  That is why I used the verb 'might have' as we simply have no knowledge of how they came about their information.  However, I think that it is fair to assume that, since the Jewish situation had been ongoing for sometime before Vespasian sent the troops into Judaea in the 60s and 70s AD.   As a result, matters Jewish and Judaean would have been a topic of discussion in these higher levels of society for some time, both before and after the fall of Jerusalem.

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Secondly this is exceptionally unlikely as the writings are from AD90-110 so even if the centurians were just 20 at the time of Jesus' death they would therefore be somewhere between 80 and 100 by the time of writing. Theoretically possible but very, very, very unlikely.
I wouldn't disagree, but would any such meeting have to have been contemporaneous with the writing?
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Owlswing

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2015, 06:29:27 PM »
Also of course you were getting the information directly - straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
One or both of them might have spoken to the centurion on duty at the time, or one of his squad.  We have no idea how old they were in c. 30AD,


. . . nor do we have any idea how old they were when they died.

Who? Tactitus, Josephus or the Centurion?
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Outrider

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2015, 07:15:24 PM »
As  I have said before, and firmly believe to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, the bible is nothing more than a two thousand year old game of Chinese whispers.
In a sense, I would agree, Matt - as I too have said before; except that 1st Century 'Chinese Whispers' would have been have been a vastly different 'game to that played in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries.

No, it wouldn't, this mythologising of illiterate cultures' capacity for perfect recall is significantly overstated. Studies of non-literate cultures show that stories are conveyed in archetypes and poetry, but there is significant drift in detail in relatively short periods.

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BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2015, 07:19:23 PM »
It is not a good analogy at all:  it is an infantile cheap shot.
BA, I'd agree with the section I've underlined; I'd disagree with the other half though.  It isn't a cheap shot - rather its a 21st century, highly literate poster judging a largely oral culture through the understanding of a literate culture.

Nice one, Hope!  If tne GREAT OWL should read it, he'll probably download it, and frame it  -  he's never had that said about him before  (probably won't ever again!)    ;D ;D
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:16:43 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

SweetPea

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2015, 08:15:15 PM »
Dear Whatever,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4q3WlM9rCI

Just saying like!! no sorry Erhman is saying, hey!! it makes a change from me quoting wee Albert ;)

Gonnagle.

Good for Bart Erhman, he always tries to be unbiased. The thing is, some atheists are so in denial of Jesus Christ they can hardly bear to think he existed and are quite prepared to believe that he didn't.

Jesus Christ is the only way out of the matrix of this world. During his 'physical' time on earth he knew we were all caught in Satan's trap and came to tell us and show us the way out. There only is one way.... and that is through Him.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Shaker

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #97 on: November 07, 2015, 08:39:28 PM »
Good for Bart Erhman, he always tries to be unbiased. The thing is, some atheists are so in denial of Jesus Christ they can hardly bear to think he existed and are quite prepared to believe that he didn't.
... the third option (which you omitted) being my own, namely that the existence or nonexistence of Jesus is a complete and utter irrelevance and really not worth anyone's head-room, since it matters not one jot to anything in anybody's life either way.

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Jesus Christ is the only way out of the matrix of this world. During his 'physical' time on earth he knew we were all caught in Satan's trap and came to tell us and show us the way out. There only is one way.... and that is through Him.
I have no need of that hypothesis.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:41:15 PM by Shaker »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2015, 08:53:11 PM »
Good for Bart Erhman, he always tries to be unbiased. The thing is, some atheists are so in denial of Jesus Christ they can hardly bear to think he existed and are quite prepared to believe that he didn't.
... the third option (which you omitted) being my own, namely that the existence or nonexistence of Jesus is a complete and utter irrelevance and really not worth anyone's head-room, since it matters not one jot to anything in anybody's life either way.

Quote
Jesus Christ is the only way out of the matrix of this world. During his 'physical' time on earth he knew we were all caught in Satan's trap and came to tell us and show us the way out. There only is one way.... and that is through Him.
I have no need of that hypothesis.
What, You mean Leicester is enough for anybody?

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #99 on: November 07, 2015, 08:54:43 PM »
Good for Bart Erhman, he always tries to be unbiased. The thing is, some atheists are so in denial of Jesus Christ they can hardly bear to think he existed and are quite prepared to believe that he didn't.
... the third option (which you omitted) being my own, namely that the existence or nonexistence of Jesus is a complete and utter irrelevance and really not worth anyone's head-room, since it matters not one jot to anything in anybody's life either way.

Quote
Jesus Christ is the only way out of the matrix of this world. During his 'physical' time on earth he knew we were all caught in Satan's trap and came to tell us and show us the way out. There only is one way.... and that is through Him.
I have no need of that hypothesis.
What, You mean Leicester is enough for anybody?

See Leicester and die!    :D
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."