Author Topic: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:  (Read 32996 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #175 on: November 08, 2015, 06:58:27 PM »

Well most of the audience of Paul's letters would be Christians who had experienced Jesus spiritually.

Well, Christians who thought they experienced Jesus spiritually, at any rate.

This is part of the point. Paul places much more emphasis on knowledge of Christ by revelation. It seems he,and the Christians at the time, didn't place much value on the events of Jesus' life. Revelation was considered much more legitimate. In the circumstances, it's understandable that the actual events of Jesus' life were largely ignored by Paul and his followers.

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But Paul, as you know, cites the 500 witnesses to resurrected Christ. Why talk about 500 witnesses if Paul actually thought that a spiritual experience of a spiritual resurrection was the end of the story. If every Christian has met with Christ spiritually why go on about a 500?

Why indeed. It's a number he pulled out of his arse. Ninety five thousand people saw me score the winning goal for England in the 1966 World Cup. Do you believe that I did?
So let me get this straight Jeremy Paul believed in just a spiritual resurrection and that's why he went on about 500 witnesses to a physical resurrection............You certainly know about pulling stuff out of your arse.


jeremyp

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #176 on: November 08, 2015, 07:06:30 PM »
A slight misrepresentation, jeremy.  The letters are all about day to day life as a believer - and would basically have been written to those who had already chosen that route.
Are you telling me that Christians, when they talk to each other don't mention the events described in the Gospels because everybody already knows them? Bullshit. I used to go to church regularly and there was always a reading from the gospels.

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They were also written to groups that Paul had already had face2face contact with.  In the case of new churches he planted, the letters make it clear that he made his listeners fully aware of the actual events of Jesus' death and his resurrection - after all, these were the seminal events of his life.
And he frequently argues theology with them, but never does he refer to what Jesus may have actually said in real life. He never says "this is the right thing to do because Jesus said so as created to me by Cephas". Nor once in all his letters does he ever claim something Jesus said in life as authority for his ideas.

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Why indeed. It's a number he pulled out of his arse.
And you have evidence to support that assertion?
Don't be so fucking naive. Of course it is. A thousand people witnessed me levitating the Eiffel tower last week and many of them are still alive.
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Outrider

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #177 on: November 08, 2015, 10:31:34 PM »
The counter to that is that most people through the ages have caught the divine and it's only those of a a philosophical materialist bent who demand signs and wonders.

Argumentum ad populum - we don't know how many of them genuinely felt touched by the idea of divinity, how many of them never questioned what they were told, how many of them pretended to be touched because of the consequences etc. You are presuming they were touched by the divine because the social norm of the times was blindly following the religious precepts.

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In fact I suppose philosophical materialism the equivalent of putting on spiritual blindfold

Or taking one off... I suspect it will be some time before we have a definitive answer on that one.

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I think it's yer actual Dawkins who in one part of his jumbled corpus accuses the masses of jumping to conclusions about the universe having a creator....That is an admission that people see the divine quite naturally.

I can't decide if you despise him or you're his biggest fan, certainly you seem to think that he's the singular focal point of all atheist arguments in history - you do realise we don't need a Jesus-figure any more than we need the actual Jesus figure, right?

Regardless of who raised the argument, part of the Abrahamic religion's description of the deity is as a creator, and modern science is increasingly calling into question the need for such a figure.

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Outrider

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #178 on: November 08, 2015, 10:36:33 PM »
Well most of the audience of Paul's letters would be Christians who had experienced Jesus spiritually.

What of all the Muslims who have experienced Allah spiritually? What of all the Shintoists who have walked in the company of the various nature spirits?

You don't know that anyone of that time had 'experienced Jesus spiritually'.

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But Paul, as you know, cites the 500 witnesses to resurrected Christ. Why talk about 500 witnesses if Paul actually thought that a spiritual experience of a spiritual resurrection was the end of the story. If every Christian has met with Christ spiritually why go on about a 500?

When people lie they typically make up extraneous details as though it lends credence to the tale, that's a fairly widely reported phenomenon. I'm not saying it's definitively 'THE' reason, but it's a viable explanation. As you know, Joseph Smith was very detailed in his account of the appearance of the angel who helped him translate his Golden Plates...

O.
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wigginhall

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #179 on: November 09, 2015, 10:28:40 AM »
If the deity exists why can't it makes its presence clear in such a way that no one could ever disbelieve in it?
Without (presumably) being aware of it you've hit upon a very respectable argument for atheism (divine hiddenness) advanced by some top-flight philosophers - J. L. Schellenberg springs to mind.

Yes, it's a powerful argument.  I think that Schellenberg and others add the point that an all-loving God would inevitably make his presence clear.   I suppose the counter-arguments are 1), he does, and we're too stupid and/or sinful to notice; 2), he has a very good reason not to appear clearly. 

Both these arguments seem feeble.   
That's only opinion.

The counter to that is that most people through the ages have caught the divine and it's only those of a a philosophical materialist bent who demand signs and wonders. In fact I suppose philosophical materialism the equivalent of putting on spiritual blindfold

I think it's yer actual Dawkins who in one part of his jumbled corpus accuses the masses of jumping to conclusions about the universe having a creator....That is an admission that people see the divine quite naturally.

I think you're answering a different argument.   This is asking why God is hidden.

If you take someone who has no belief in God, but is reasonably open to arguments and evidence, let's call her Claire, then in the Christian formulation, God is omniscient, so he knows what would convince Claire of his existence.   He is omnipotent, so he can arrange this; he is all-loving, so he wants to be in a relationship with Claire.

So why does he not do this?  Possible answers are that he does, (he is not hidden), that Claire is not persuadable, that God leaves space for faith, that God gives Claire free will, and so on, but for me, they don't answer the problem, which flows from the 3 omnis.
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Shaker

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #180 on: November 09, 2015, 10:54:35 AM »
And if Claire is not persuadable that knocks omnipotence out for starters - for a genuinely omnipotent entity there's no such thing as unpersuadable.
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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #181 on: November 09, 2015, 11:20:40 AM »
Why would a reasonable deity makes its existence purely a matter of faith, if the downside of unbelief is a terrible punishment?

wigginhall

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #182 on: November 09, 2015, 01:27:53 PM »
Why would a reasonable deity makes its existence purely a matter of faith, if the downside of unbelief is a terrible punishment?

Yes, it sounds like a definition of insanity, to say that here is something hidden, but if you keep saying that you can't see it, then you will be punished for ever. 

I think one solution that some Christians have found is that they don't really believe this.  I'm not sure that many of them really believe in the 3 omnis, although they pay lip service to it.
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floo

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #183 on: November 09, 2015, 01:40:22 PM »
Why would a reasonable deity makes its existence purely a matter of faith, if the downside of unbelief is a terrible punishment?

Yes, it sounds like a definition of insanity, to say that here is something hidden, but if you keep saying that you can't see it, then you will be punished for ever. 

I think one solution that some Christians have found is that they don't really believe this.  I'm not sure that many of them really believe in the 3 omnis, although they pay lip service to it.

I think it is only the extreme 'Christians' who believe in the tortures of hell forever and ever. I wish they would explain how a reasonable deity could expect people to believe in it when there is no evidence to support its existence. If unbelief actually leads to torture in hell, surely the deity is playing an evil game with humans!

Hope

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #184 on: November 09, 2015, 01:41:50 PM »
Why would a reasonable deity makes its existence purely a matter of faith, if the downside of unbelief is a terrible punishment?

Yes, it sounds like a definition of insanity, to say that here is something hidden, but if you keep saying that you can't see it, then you will be punished for ever. 

I think one solution that some Christians have found is that they don't really believe this.  I'm not sure that many of them really believe in the 3 omnis, although they pay lip service to it.
Not sure that there is anything related to punishment; after all, we choose our own destiny in this respect.  As for 3 'omni's, I'm not sure that any Christian believes that there 3 of them; there is certainly no indication in the Bible that there are.  They are 3-in-1 - so only one 'omni', but with 3 facets.
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wigginhall

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #185 on: November 09, 2015, 01:46:12 PM »
Why would a reasonable deity makes its existence purely a matter of faith, if the downside of unbelief is a terrible punishment?

Yes, it sounds like a definition of insanity, to say that here is something hidden, but if you keep saying that you can't see it, then you will be punished for ever. 

I think one solution that some Christians have found is that they don't really believe this.  I'm not sure that many of them really believe in the 3 omnis, although they pay lip service to it.

I think it is only the extreme 'Christians' who believe in the tortures of hell forever and ever. I wish they would explain how a reasonable deity could expect people to believe in it when there is no evidence to support its existence. If unbelief actually leads to torture in hell, surely the deity is playing an evil game with humans!

I forgot to say that the idea of divine hiddenness is sometimes called 'reasonable non-belief'.   In other words, is it reasonable to not believe in God?   Well, yes, unless you are a fanatical theist.   But now we go back to the other argument - that since God is omniscient, he knows what would convince the reasonable unbeliever, he can arrange it, and he wants to, because he loves you.   Cushti!   Or maybe not.
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Hope

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #186 on: November 09, 2015, 01:50:35 PM »
I wish they would explain how a reasonable deity could expect people to believe in it when there is no evidence to support its existence.
As several of us have pointed out, there is plenty of evidence in the world around us, but none that satisfies the fairly limited definition of 'scientific' evidence.

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If unbelief actually leads to torture in hell, surely the deity is playing an evil game with humans!
Floo, the only references to 'torture in hell' (if that's what they are) that occur in the Bible occur in passages that are clearly not meant to be taken literally - they occur in parables and allegorical writings.  As I've pointed out several times, we get to choose our destiny and God respects those decisions.  If you or I choose to spend eternity outside of the presence of God, then he doesn't ignore that choice.  Note though that being outside of the presence doesn't mean out of the 'sphere of influence' of. 

Its like the ex-military folk in the States who choose to go off grid: they are outside the presence of humanity, but they continue to be effected by what other humans do.
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Outrider

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #187 on: November 09, 2015, 01:54:44 PM »
I wish they would explain how a reasonable deity could expect people to believe in it when there is no evidence to support its existence.
As several of us have pointed out, there is plenty of evidence in the world around us, but none that satisfies the fairly limited definition of 'scientific' evidence.

And, as has been pointed out to you on multiple occasions, unless you have some sort of methodology for differentiating unjustified claims from justified claims you don't have evidence, you just have claims.

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If unbelief actually leads to torture in hell, surely the deity is playing an evil game with humans!
Floo, the only references to 'torture in hell' (if that's what they are) that occur in the Bible occur in passages that are clearly not meant to be taken literally - they occur in parables and allegorical writings.

Yet there's no clear explanation of which parts are supposed to be taken literally and which aren't, that's a subjective decision which allows the vague nature of the writing to be used to justify pretty much any philosophy a reader might wish.

O.
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floo

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #188 on: November 09, 2015, 01:55:31 PM »
I wish they would explain how a reasonable deity could expect people to believe in it when there is no evidence to support its existence.
As several of us have pointed out, there is plenty of evidence in the world around us, but none that satisfies the fairly limited definition of 'scientific' evidence.

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If unbelief actually leads to torture in hell, surely the deity is playing an evil game with humans!
Floo, the only references to 'torture in hell' (if that's what they are) that occur in the Bible occur in passages that are clearly not meant to be taken literally - they occur in parables and allegorical writings.  As I've pointed out several times, we get to choose our destiny and God respects those decisions.  If you or I choose to spend eternity outside of the presence of God, then he doesn't ignore that choice.  Note though that being outside of the presence doesn't mean out of the 'sphere of influence' of. 

Its like the ex-military folk in the States who choose to go off grid: they are outside the presence of humanity, but they continue to be effected by what other humans do.

Hope there is NO verifiable evidence to support the existence of a deity, as much as you wish there was! Science is not limited, it is belief in a deity, especially the one featured in the Bible, which is very limiting!

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #189 on: November 09, 2015, 01:55:41 PM »
As several of us have pointed out, there is plenty of evidence in the world around us, but none that satisfies the fairly limited definition of 'scientific' evidence.

So, what criteria does this non-scientific 'evidence' meet?

floo

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #190 on: November 09, 2015, 01:57:25 PM »
As several of us have pointed out, there is plenty of evidence in the world around us, but none that satisfies the fairly limited definition of 'scientific' evidence.

So, what criteria does this non-scientific 'evidence' meet?

Like billions of people believe in the deity, so it must be true! ;D

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #191 on: November 09, 2015, 02:05:36 PM »


Can I repeat, for the benefit of the poor readers on here:  the OP is, "The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion."   Clear?
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wigginhall

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #192 on: November 09, 2015, 02:10:48 PM »


Can I repeat, for the benefit of the poor readers on here:  the OP is, "The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion."   Clear?

Could I repeat a sentence from the OP: 'Jesus died so that ordinary people like you and me could go to heaven'.  Are you saying that we are not allowed to discuss this?
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Outrider

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #193 on: November 09, 2015, 02:15:43 PM »
Can I repeat, for the benefit of the poor readers on here:  the OP is, "The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion."   Clear?

OK, but that discussion went like this:
OP- 'Description of horrific way to die'
Everyone else - 'Yep, that's horrific'.
Game over... the discussion came from the idea that this was some sort of 'argument from sympathy' that we should drop to our knees and pray because the claim is that Jesus volunteered for this to pre-emptively atone for the breaking of some rather arbitrary commandments that may or may not occur in his future.

O.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #194 on: November 09, 2015, 02:16:36 PM »


Can I repeat, for the benefit of the poor readers on here:  the OP is, "The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion."   Clear?

Could I repeat a sentence from the OP: 'Jesus died so that ordinary people like you and me could go to heaven'.  Are you saying that we are not allowed to discuss this?

And what posts are there discussing that line?  And as you full well know that is not the thrust of the OP anyway.  The resident atheists simply use the thread as an excuse to belittle Christianity, in their usual, daily, diatribes  -  poor lot!
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

wigginhall

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #195 on: November 09, 2015, 02:18:27 PM »


Can I repeat, for the benefit of the poor readers on here:  the OP is, "The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion."   Clear?

Could I repeat a sentence from the OP: 'Jesus died so that ordinary people like you and me could go to heaven'.  Are you saying that we are not allowed to discuss this?

And what posts are there discussing that line?  And as you full well know that is not the thrust of the OP anyway.  The resident atheists simply use the thread as an excuse to belittle Christianity, in their usual, daily, diatribes  -  poor lot!

Well, it's nice that you are a mod now, I hope you enjoy it.
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BeRational

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #196 on: November 09, 2015, 02:19:18 PM »


Can I repeat, for the benefit of the poor readers on here:  the OP is, "The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion."   Clear?

Could I repeat a sentence from the OP: 'Jesus died so that ordinary people like you and me could go to heaven'.  Are you saying that we are not allowed to discuss this?

And what posts are there discussing that line?  And as you full well know that is not the thrust of the OP anyway.  The resident atheists simply use the thread as an excuse to belittle Christianity, in their usual, daily, diatribes  -  poor lot!

Given that I think we all agree that this form of execution is terrible.

The question I have is, So what?
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #197 on: November 09, 2015, 02:20:13 PM »


Can I repeat, for the benefit of the poor readers on here:  the OP is, "The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion."   Clear?

Could I repeat a sentence from the OP: 'Jesus died so that ordinary people like you and me could go to heaven'.  Are you saying that we are not allowed to discuss this?

And what posts are there discussing that line?  And as you full well know that is not the thrust of the OP anyway.  The resident atheists simply use the thread as an excuse to belittle Christianity, in their usual, daily, diatribes  -  poor lot!

Well, it's nice that you are

I cannot see how that comment in any way reflects my post:  then that's usual with your posts.
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Sassy

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #198 on: November 26, 2015, 11:46:19 PM »
This has been doing the rounds again on fb:



But can you spot the fact from the fiction?
Thrud,
Can you.

I am not sure why you post these thing or what you think it really does for those who read.

Give us your reasons.. What is the fact and fiction.
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BeRational

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Re: The Anatomical And Physiological Details Of Death By Crucifixion:
« Reply #199 on: November 26, 2015, 11:52:56 PM »
Thrud,
Can you.

I am not sure why you post these thing or what you think it really does for those who read.

Give us your reasons.. What is the fact and fiction.

I am not sure there are any facts with regards to Jesus.
Just myth.
A bit like Robin Hood
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