Religion and altruism

[BashfulAnthony]

Hi everyone,

People brought up in a very religious and orthodox environment (in all religions around the world) tend to be very smug and 'holier than thou'.   This makes them judgmental.....(if people are having problems...they probably deserve it)!

This judgmental attitude also makes many of them indifferent to the suffering of others and perhaps less charitable. Only in instances where God specifically requires them to be altruistic do they want to do something about it.

People need religion till they grow up....after which they will automatically know how to live.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

People need religion till they grow up; why?

ippy

Actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need religion

[Shaker]

And yet there are literally innumerable mature adults who have no religion and moreover no need for one. How come?

Unless of course you're going to define them as not mature and not adults?

[BashfulAnthony]

And yet there are literally innumerable mature adults who have no religion and moreover no need for one. How come?

Unless of course you're going to define them as not mature and not adults?

It may be that those who have no religion simply haven't "discovered" it.  In our short life-time all of us could benefit from all kinds of experiences, if we did but appreciate what is there to garner.  And of course, there are many reasons why some distance themselves from religion; though the majority in the world express at least some affinity with it. 

[Shaker]

And yet there are literally innumerable mature adults who have no religion and moreover no need for one. How come?

Unless of course you're going to define them as not mature and not adults?

It may be that those who have no religion simply haven't "discovered" it.

... which is not going to apply to those who have had it (or had one) and lost or abandoned it.

And of course, there are many reasons why some distance themselves from religion; though the majority in the world express at least some affinity with it.

The issue there becomes one of differentiating between actual, sincere believers (true believers, without any disparaging overtones in that phrase) and those purely nominal cultural adherents.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hi everyone,

People brought up in a very religious and orthodox environment (in all religions around the world) tend to be very smug and 'holier than thou'.   This makes them judgmental.....(if people are having problems...they probably deserve it)!

This judgmental attitude also makes many of them indifferent to the suffering of others and perhaps less charitable. Only in instances where God specifically requires them to be altruistic do they want to do something about it.

People need religion till they grow up....after which they will automatically know how to live.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

People need religion till they grow up; why?

ippy

But you have been neotenised you great big laddy you.

[BashfulAnthony]

And yet there are literally innumerable mature adults who have no religion and moreover no need for one. How come?

Unless of course you're going to define them as not mature and not adults?

It may be that those who have no religion simply haven't "discovered" it.

... which is not going to apply to those who have had it (or had one) and lost or abandoned it.

And of course, there are many reasons why some distance themselves from religion; though the majority in the world express at least some affinity with it.

The issue there becomes one of differentiating between actual, sincere believers (true believers, without any disparaging overtones in that phrase) and those purely nominal cultural adherents.

Well, there we are in the realms of the unprovable, if I can put it that way.  There are, I believe, though it's unprovable, huge numbers who you might describe as nominal, cultural, adherents, who, when push comes to shove, would be sincere believers.

[Shaker]

Well, there we are in the realms of the unprovable, if I can put it that way.  There are, I believe, though it's unprovable, huge numbers who you might describe as nominal, cultural, adherents, who, when push comes to shove, would be sincere believers.

If it's unprovable - I don't believe it is - then it's just an empty assertion. Push does come to shove in everybody's life at some point. Almost everybody, unless they themselves die fairly young, has to face the sickness and death of those they love. Everybody has to face their own illnesses and ultimately their own deaths: yet there's no evidence at all that this turns non-believers into believers.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, there we are in the realms of the unprovable, if I can put it that way.  There are, I believe, though it's unprovable, huge numbers who you might describe as nominal, cultural, adherents, who, when push comes to shove, would be sincere believers.

If it's unprovable - I don't believe it is - then it's just an empty assertion. Push does come to shove in everybody's life at some point. Almost everybody, unless they themselves die fairly young, has to face the sickness and death of those they love. Everybody has to face their own illnesses and ultimately their own deaths: yet there's no evidence at all that this turns non-believers into believers.

Maybe, but I think there are many who, in times of great distress, turn to prayer, whether it be in their own travail, or that of others.

[Shaker]

But based on what? You can't just say "Maybe" and then merely repeat exactly what you said before, with as little (i.e. no) evidence.

[BashfulAnthony]

But based on what? You can't just say "Maybe" and then merely repeat exactly what you said before, with as little (i.e. no) evidence.

I said, "maybe," because neither you nor I can provide evidence one way or the other.  Unless you can provide some to substantiate what you said.

[Rhiannon]

I think it's pretty much human nature to pray when we or someone else is in the shit. Whether people emerge from that with any kind of belief is debatable.

[Shaker]

I think it's pretty much human nature to pray when we or someone else is in the shit.

I'm not so sure, especially as time marches on and more and more people disclaim and distance themselves from any kind of religious adherence, formal or otherwise.

[BashfulAnthony]

I think it's pretty much human nature to pray when we or someone else is in the shit. Whether people emerge from that with any kind of belief is debatable.

Well, if they don't, you are in effect, calling them delusionists; and I don't think the majority pray because they can't think of any thing else to do, but because they believe it will have an effect.

[Shaker]

But based on what? You can't just say "Maybe" and then merely repeat exactly what you said before, with as little (i.e. no) evidence.

I said, "maybe," because neither you nor I can provide evidence one way or the other.  Unless you can provide some to substantiate what you said.

So you're asking for evidence of people not doing something?

[Rhiannon]

I think it's pretty much human nature to pray when we or someone else is in the shit.

I'm not so sure, especially as time marches on and more and more people disclaim and distance themselves from any kind of religious adherence, formal or otherwise.

Depends how you define 'pray'. I'd include 'please let everything be ok' said in a moment of crisis in that. I don't think it has much to do with religion at all.

[BashfulAnthony]

But based on what? You can't just say "Maybe" and then merely repeat exactly what you said before, with as little (i.e. no) evidence.

I said, "maybe," because neither you nor I can provide evidence one way or the other.  Unless you can provide some to substantiate what you said.

So you're asking for evidence of people not doing something?

You said: "yet there's no evidence at all that this turns non-believers into believers."  Can you prove that or not?  If not, it is merely your opinion.

[Shaker]

Again, you're asking for evidence of non-doing, inaction.

[Gordon]

I think it's pretty much human nature to pray when we or someone else is in the shit.

I'm not so sure, especially as time marches on and more and more people disclaim and distance themselves from any kind of religious adherence, formal or otherwise.

All I can say here is that during the most stressful event of my life so far, the traumatic death of my younger brother in very difficult circumstances and then the fall-out from this that lasted for many months, the notion of praying never once crossed my mind.

[Owlswing]

I think it's pretty much human nature to pray when we or someone else is in the shit.

I'm not so sure, especially as time marches on and more and more people disclaim and distance themselves from any kind of religious adherence, formal or otherwise.

Depends how you define 'pray'. I'd include 'please let everything be ok' said in a moment of crisis in that. I don't think it has much to do with religion at all.

Or, if the situation is bad enough, "For Fuck's Sake let me get myself out of this!"

[Shaker]

All I can say here is that during the most stressful event of my life so far, the traumatic death of my younger brother in very difficult circumstances and then the fall-out from this that lasted for many months, the notion of praying never once crossed my mind.

Ditto.

[BashfulAnthony]

Again, you're asking for evidence of non-doing, inaction.

In that case, don't make generalisations without being able to substantiate them.. You are the first to demand that of religious beliefs.

[Rhiannon]

All I can say here is that during the most stressful event of my life so far, the traumatic death of my younger brother in very difficult circumstances and then the fall-out from this that lasted for many months, the notion of praying never once crossed my mind.

Ditto.

Maybe it's a cultural thing? Those of us raised with it revert to what we know.

Briefly.

[Shaker]

Again, you're asking for evidence of non-doing, inaction.

In that case, don't make generalisations without being able to substantiate them.

Like this?

There are, I believe, though it's unprovable, huge numbers who you might describe as nominal, cultural, adherents, who, when push comes to shove, would be sincere believers.

[BashfulAnthony]

Again, you're asking for evidence of non-doing, inaction.

In that case, don't make generalisations without being able to substantiate them.

Like this?

There are, I believe, though it's unprovable, huge numbers who you might describe as nominal, cultural, adherents, who, when push comes to shove, would be sincere believers.

Over the years I have heard many examples of people praying when in dire need, as you must have if you're honest about it.  9/11 is a prime example, if you've heard any of the survivors' stories.

[Hope]

For plenty of kids in this country (probably most) religion plays no meaningful part in their upbringing or their lives. Sure they might learn that religion exists in RE lessons at school but that is about knowledge rather than influencing their upbringing and their moral development.

They have no active involvement in any religion and nor do their families. Yet they are perfectly capable of developing into mature and moral adults. Religion is not necessary at all.

They don't need to hide but unless you choose to look it out religion is all but invisible in a meaningful sense in terms of influencing people's lives in the UK.

The problem is, PD (and others) is that you don't know what unconscious influence the Christian heritage of the UK has on your children.  Having lived in  Nepal, where the Christian heritage simply doesn't exist, we were able to see the Hindu equivalent in action.  The locals had no idea it was so obvious - especially amongst the Maoist party leaders!!