Religion and altruism

[Shaker]

In America that's not exactly a knock-me-down-with-a-feather revelation.

[ippy]

Hi everyone,

People brought up in a very religious and orthodox environment (in all religions around the world) tend to be very smug and 'holier than thou'.   This makes them judgmental.....(if people are having problems...they probably deserve it)!

This judgmental attitude also makes many of them indifferent to the suffering of others and perhaps less charitable. Only in instances where God specifically requires them to be altruistic do they want to do something about it.

People need religion till they grow up....after which they will automatically know how to live.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

People need religion till they grow up; why?

ippy

Actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need religion

I can see what it is you're saying:

But you might as well say, people need need two plates of cold custard till they grow up but actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need is a plate of a paint stripingly hot curry from time to time.

No doubt in my mind, the custard and the curry will do me far more good than some old defunct, past its sell by date idea, that hasn't got a shred of evidence that would or could ever support it.

ippy     

[BashfulAnthony]

Hi everyone,

People brought up in a very religious and orthodox environment (in all religions around the world) tend to be very smug and 'holier than thou'.   This makes them judgmental.....(if people are having problems...they probably deserve it)!

This judgmental attitude also makes many of them indifferent to the suffering of others and perhaps less charitable. Only in instances where God specifically requires them to be altruistic do they want to do something about it.

People need religion till they grow up....after which they will automatically know how to live.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

People need religion till they grow up; why?

ippy

Actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need religion

I can see what it is you're saying:

But you might as well say, people need need two plates of cold custard till they grow up but actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need is a plate of a paint stripingly hot curry from time to time.

No doubt in my mind, the custard and the curry will do me far more good than some old defunct, past its sell by date idea, that hasn't got a shred of evidence that would or could ever support it.

ippy   

So past its sell-by-date that it is going strong 2,000 years after it began, with billions of adherents  -   some defunct idea!

[ippy]

Hi everyone,

People brought up in a very religious and orthodox environment (in all religions around the world) tend to be very smug and 'holier than thou'.   This makes them judgmental.....(if people are having problems...they probably deserve it)!

This judgmental attitude also makes many of them indifferent to the suffering of others and perhaps less charitable. Only in instances where God specifically requires them to be altruistic do they want to do something about it.

People need religion till they grow up....after which they will automatically know how to live.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

People need religion till they grow up; why?

ippy

Actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need religion

I can see what it is you're saying:

But you might as well say, people need need two plates of cold custard till they grow up but actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need is a plate of a paint stripingly hot curry from time to time.

No doubt in my mind, the custard and the curry will do me far more good than some old defunct, past its sell by date idea, that hasn't got a shred of evidence that would or could ever support it.

ippy   

So past its sell by date that it is going strong 2,000 years after it began, with billions of adherents  -   some defunct idea!

Well I suppose there will always be gullible people, when you add them all together, what a ginormous waste of time.

ippy

[Owlswing]

Hi everyone,

People brought up in a very religious and orthodox environment (in all religions around the world) tend to be very smug and 'holier than thou'.   This makes them judgmental.....(if people are having problems...they probably deserve it)!

This judgmental attitude also makes many of them indifferent to the suffering of others and perhaps less charitable. Only in instances where God specifically requires them to be altruistic do they want to do something about it.

People need religion till they grow up....after which they will automatically know how to live.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

People need religion till they grow up; why?

ippy

Actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need religion

I can see what it is you're saying:

But you might as well say, people need need two plates of cold custard till they grow up but actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need is a plate of a paint stripingly hot curry from time to time.

No doubt in my mind, the custard and the curry will do me far more good than some old defunct, past its sell by date idea, that hasn't got a shred of evidence that would or could ever support it.

ippy   

So past its sell by date that it is going strong 2,000 years after it began, with billions of adherents  -   some defunct idea!

Well I suppose there will always be gullible people, when you add them all together, what a ginormous wast of time.

ippy

Paganism pre-dates it by about 23,000 years. And doesn't that piss the Christians off big-time! Not that they will admit it, of course!

[Gordon]

The problem is, PD (and others) is that you don't know what unconscious influence the Christian heritage of the UK has on your children.  Having lived in  Nepal, where the Christian heritage simply doesn't exist, we were able to see the Hindu equivalent in action.  The locals had no idea it was so obvious - especially amongst the Maoist party leaders!!

I don't know about that.

I'd say the in the case of my own children (all adults now), in our family chats about behaviour and morality over the years, that Aristotle was the main philosophical influence and Christianity not at all, and especially since we were able to ensure they were protected from proselytising during their primary school years. It is perfectly possible to live meaningfully without the direct influence of religion: which in the case of my family was, and still is, something that afflicts others.

It is also quite possible to be interested in the social, political and historical influence of religion (such as by being a member of this Forum) without thinking that any of the core beliefs involving divine agency are actually true or that, in the case of Christianity, what it is alleged to 'teach' is more profound than other approaches.     

 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

They don't need to hide but unless you choose to look it out religion is all but invisible in a meaningful sense in terms of influencing people's lives in the UK.

Influencing people! does it?

I think that is a good question and I suppose you have to ask what we mean by influence.

In this country almost every main st has a Church, if you are a non believer do you just walk past it, don't give it a seconds thought.

I wonder how many non believers ( the word atheist is to restricting ) have used the expletive, for God's sake or Jesus Christ.

How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.

School, school assembly or history lessons, history lessons without mentioning religion!

Does your council building fly a flag, here in Glasgow it is usually three flags, Saltire or St Andrews cross, Union flag and sometimes our cities emblem, all three flags are religiously inspired.

Our national sport, well here in Glasgow, sadly you can't escape religion, but at most sporting events we ask God to save the Queen, the monarchy, religion again.

Our two biggest holidays, religion.

Law, architecture, historical literature, hell! ( hell  ) even modern day literature, you will be hard pressed not to find some kind of reference to religion.

I think Prof that the above is just the tip of the iceberg.

Does religion influence us? a very good question.

Gonnagle.

[BashfulAnthony]

Hi everyone,

People brought up in a very religious and orthodox environment (in all religions around the world) tend to be very smug and 'holier than thou'.   This makes them judgmental.....(if people are having problems...they probably deserve it)!

This judgmental attitude also makes many of them indifferent to the suffering of others and perhaps less charitable. Only in instances where God specifically requires them to be altruistic do they want to do something about it.

People need religion till they grow up....after which they will automatically know how to live.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

People need religion till they grow up; why?

ippy

Actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need religion

I can see what it is you're saying:

But you might as well say, people need need two plates of cold custard till they grow up but actually, it's when people grow up and become mature adults, and realise what is what, that they need is a plate of a paint stripingly hot curry from time to time.

No doubt in my mind, the custard and the curry will do me far more good than some old defunct, past its sell by date idea, that hasn't got a shred of evidence that would or could ever support it.

ippy   

So past its sell by date that it is going strong 2,000 years after it began, with billions of adherents  -   some defunct idea!

Well I suppose there will always be gullible people, when you add them all together, what a ginormous wast of time.

ippy

That comment demonstrates nicely the weakness of your position.  The majority of the world's population have some religious belief:  and you class them as gullible - typical atheist blindness and arrogance.

[Rhiannon]

I've said it before, the thing you cannot get away from with regard to the Anglican Church is that in the shittiest areas where the post no longer delivers and buses won't go, there will always be some poor sod in a dog collar trying to deal with vandalism and junkies, offering soup kitchens and toddler groups and burying old ladies from his or her ever dwindling congregation.

And in a rural area like this there is very little in the way of organised state support. I know first hand that when a family arrives here with nothing they are told to knock on the door of the vicarage. And I don't know if this is the case now but in the recent past each church was allocated a sum of money to meet local crisis need, distributed at the priest's discretion. Among the thingsmy old pp stepped in to sort was keeping a local preschool afloat, and meeting a non-church family's mortgage repayments for a couple of months so that the bank didn't repossess their home.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well I suppose there will always be gullible people, when you add them all together, what a ginormous wast of time.

ippy

That comment demonstrates nicely the weakness of your position.  The majority of the world's population, billions of them, have some religious belief:  and you class them as gullible - typical atheist blindness and arrogance.

[BashfulAnthony]

Dear Prof,

They don't need to hide but unless you choose to look it out religion is all but invisible in a meaningful sense in terms of influencing people's lives in the UK.

Influencing people! does it?

I think that is a good question and I suppose you have to ask what we mean by influence.

In this country almost every main st has a Church, if you are a non believer do you just walk past it, don't give it a seconds thought.

I wonder how many non believers ( the word atheist is to restricting ) have used the expletive, for God's sake or Jesus Christ.

How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.

School, school assembly or history lessons, history lessons without mentioning religion!

Does your council building fly a flag, here in Glasgow it is usually three flags, Saltire or St Andrews cross, Union flag and sometimes our cities emblem, all three flags are religiously inspired.

Our national sport, well here in Glasgow, sadly you can't escape religion, but at most sporting events we ask God to save the Queen, the monarchy, religion again.

Our two biggest holidays, religion.

Law, architecture, historical literature, hell! ( hell  ) even modern day literature, you will be hard pressed not to find some kind of reference to religion.

I think Prof that the above is just the tip of the iceberg.

Does religion influence us? a very good question.

Gonnagle.

Morning, Gonners, hope you are well this Remembrance Sunday.

You make the point well, and as you say, it is the tip of the ice-berg.  The atheists blithely ignore all that, yet, whether they like it or not, their lives are influenced and shaped by religion and what it is in our lives.  Note that in all you posted, and in much more, there is no malign influence, just the betterment of each of us.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Bashers,

Morning, Gonners, hope you are well this Remembrance Sunday.

Remembrance Sunday! I was on my way to the pub yesterday ( the atheists made me do it, no they did honestly ) as I was walking down the high st the sound of a Orange flute band could be heard, as I walked on, there they were, the shoelaces tied together brigade ( watch them marching and you will understand ) holding up the traffic and playing "the cry was no surrender".

Now I said to myself "what the F*** ( yes I actually swore ) are they doing out at this time of year, as they got closer I noticed the emblem on their shirts, three poppies

It did not register to me at first when the band stopped and the lead drummer ( guy with a big drum strapped to his belly ) went into a frenzy, banging his drum for all he was worth, then the penny dropped, they had stopped outside the local Roman Catholic Church.

I walked away thinking, yes that is a great way to remember our fallen

Religion Bashers can have its very ugly side.

Gonnagle.

[BashfulAnthony]

Dear Bashers,

Morning, Gonners, hope you are well this Remembrance Sunday.

Remembrance Sunday! I was on my way to the pub yesterday ( the atheists made me do it, no they did honestly ) as I was walking down the high st the sound of a Orange flute band could be heard, as I walked on, there they were, the shoelaces tied together brigade ( watch them marching and you will understand ) holding up the traffic and playing "the cry was no surrender".

Now I said to myself "what the F*** ( yes I actually swore ) are they doing out at this time of year, as they got closer I noticed the emblem on their shirts, three poppies

It did not register to me at first when the band stopped and the lead drummer ( guy with a big drum strapped to his belly ) went into a frenzy, banging his drum for all he was worth, then the penny dropped, they had stopped outside the local Roman Catholic Church.

I walked away thinking, yes that is a great way to remember our fallen

Religion Bashers can have its very ugly side.

Gonnagle.

There is no accounting for how some perceive things.  But we have to keep chipping away with the words of Our Lord:

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.  You are my friends if you do what I command.  I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.  You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.  This is my command: Love each other."

[Rhiannon]

Dear Bashers,

Morning, Gonners, hope you are well this Remembrance Sunday.

Remembrance Sunday! I was on my way to the pub yesterday ( the atheists made me do it, no they did honestly ) as I was walking down the high st the sound of a Orange flute band could be heard, as I walked on, there they were, the shoelaces tied together brigade ( watch them marching and you will understand ) holding up the traffic and playing "the cry was no surrender".

Now I said to myself "what the F*** ( yes I actually swore ) are they doing out at this time of year, as they got closer I noticed the emblem on their shirts, three poppies

It did not register to me at first when the band stopped and the lead drummer ( guy with a big drum strapped to his belly ) went into a frenzy, banging his drum for all he was worth, then the penny dropped, they had stopped outside the local Roman Catholic Church.

I walked away thinking, yes that is a great way to remember our fallen

Religion Bashers can have its very ugly side.

Gonnagle.

       

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

They don't need to hide but unless you choose to look it out religion is all but invisible in a meaningful sense in terms of influencing people's lives in the UK.

Influencing people! does it?

I think that is a good question and I suppose you have to ask what we mean by influence.

In this country almost every main st has a Church, if you are a non believer do you just walk past it, don't give it a seconds thought.

I wonder how many non believers ( the word atheist is to restricting ) have used the expletive, for God's sake or Jesus Christ.

How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.

School, school assembly or history lessons, history lessons without mentioning religion!

Does your council building fly a flag, here in Glasgow it is usually three flags, Saltire or St Andrews cross, Union flag and sometimes our cities emblem, all three flags are religiously inspired.

Our national sport, well here in Glasgow, sadly you can't escape religion, but at most sporting events we ask God to save the Queen, the monarchy, religion again.

Our two biggest holidays, religion.

Law, architecture, historical literature, hell! ( hell  ) even modern day literature, you will be hard pressed not to find some kind of reference to religion.

I think Prof that the above is just the tip of the iceberg.

Does religion influence us? a very good question.

Gonnagle.

Many of us attended fireworks displays over the past few days.

Does that mean we are all anti catholic, or meaningfully influenced by such anti catholic sentiment. Nope, of course not, indeed many of those attending (e.g. my wife) are catholic.

There is a difference between a historical cultural reason for an event, symbol etc and its original meaning still being pertinent to the extent that it directly influences future generations, which is what we were talking about.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Many of us attended fireworks displays over the past few days.

Does that mean we are all anti catholic, or meaningfully influenced by such anti catholic sentiment. Nope, of course not, indeed many of those attending (e.g. my wife) are catholic.

No, but you have just given another example of religious influence ( please note that I am not saying it is all a good influence ).

There is a difference between a historical cultural reason for an event, symbol etc and its original meaning still being pertinent to the extent that it directly influences future generations, which is what we were talking about.

I would hope that one of the great things we can teach our kids, our future generations is that they nurture a enquiring mind, why Easter, why Christmas, why bonfire night.

The influence of religion is all around us, without actually realising, how much does it effect/influence us, good or bad.

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

Many of us attended fireworks displays over the past few days.

Does that mean we are all anti catholic, or meaningfully influenced by such anti catholic sentiment. Nope, of course not, indeed many of those attending (e.g. my wife) are catholic.

No, but you have just given another example of religious influence ( please note that I am not saying it is all a good influence ).

There is a difference between a historical cultural reason for an event, symbol etc and its original meaning still being pertinent to the extent that it directly influences future generations, which is what we were talking about.

I would hope that one of the great things we can teach our kids, our future generations is that they nurture a enquiring mind, why Easter, why Christmas, why bonfire night.

The influence of religion is all around us, without actually realising, how much does it effect/influence us, good or bad.

Gonnagle.

Gonners - there is a world of difference between having knowledge of the origins of cultural events etc and being meaningfully influenced (e.g. having a belief, changing behaviours etc etc) based on those origins. And given that many of our festivals, cultural events etc are multifaceted, with layer upon layer of influence, which influence are you assuming that kids might be noting.

So going back to bonfire night, to what extent does its continued existence influence current children's behaviour in a manner that actually related to its original anti catholic sentiment. Answer - it doesn't and indeed I think societally we'd be extremely uncomfortable if we felt that our children were actually being influenced to sectarian anti catholic sentiment by bonfire night.

[Rhiannon]

I think we need to separate our Christianised cultural identity from the way in which organised religion props up the welfare state.

[Shaker]

I wonder how many non believers ( the word atheist is to restricting ) have used the expletive, for God's sake or Jesus Christ.

I should say approximately the same number who use words such as Wednesday and Friday

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.

Less and less so by the year. Religious funerals are waning and secular funerals rising correspondingly. In terms of marriage over two thirds (68%, the last I heard, but by now may be even higher) of marriages are strictly secular, civil ones.

School, school assembly or history lessons, history lessons without mentioning religion!

Most schools flout the law on assemblies by simply not having them. My schools didn't and that was decades

Our two biggest holidays, religion.

In one case, paganism

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Belief changing!! I don't think I am asking that.

which influence are you assuming that kids might be noting.

Knowing the story behind why we do what we do, as in bonfire night, does it influence our thought processes, consciously or subconsciously.

An atheist whose child has to sit through prayers at school assemblies, does that influence his thinking, the atheist not the child, well I suppose it depends on the atheist, no harm in praying to a non existent god, or I don't like my child being brainwashed.

Just thinking out loud Prof, religious symbols and sayings are all around us, does it not affect us in some way?

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

Less and less so by the year. Religious funerals are waning and secular funerals rising correspondingly. In terms of marriage over two thirds (68%, the last I heard, but by now may be even higher) of marriages are strictly secular, civil ones.

No argument from me, but religion is still mentioned, secular funeral as opposed to

In one case, paganism

Religion again and on the subject of paganism, how does your natural pagan soul feel about today's weather ( although it may be nicer in your neck of the woods ) it is chucking it down here and I need to go out in it and stop procrastinating on this forum

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

Knowing the story behind why we do what we do, as in bonfire night, does it influence our thought processes, consciously or subconsciously.

The trouble with that, Gonners, is that I strongly suspect - can't prove, and don't know of any statistical data on the subject, i.e. opinion polls, but strongly suspect - that the vast majority of the population don't know the ultimate (as opposed to proximate) reasons behind Bonfire Night. Select a sample of the population at random and ask them; I'm confident the majority will say something along the lines of "Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament" (which is the proximate reason). Probe for the ultimate reason and ask why he should have wanted to do this however and your responses will plummet much, much closer to zero. Aside from professional historians and the interested amateur (minuscule numbers both), who knows or cares about English anti-Catholic repression and persecution in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries?

[Shaker]

No argument from me, but religion is still mentioned, secular funeral as opposed to

Only because until historically incredibly recently religious rites were the default, the norm, even for the completely religiously apathetic majority. (Amongst the elderly this remains the case, but cohort replacement has a way of attending to them). As they cease to be so - a process already well underway - the comparison with religion will evaporate.

Religion again and on the subject of paganism, how does your natural pagan soul feel about today's weather ( although it may be nicer in your neck of the woods ) it is chucking it down here and I need to go out in it and stop procrastinating on this forum

It's grey and breezy and intermittently wet here, with - according to the forecast - lots of heavy rain to come this evening.

In other words, a beautiful and bracing elemental day 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

The trouble with that, Gonners, is that I strongly suspect - can't prove, and don't know of any statistical data on the subject, i.e. opinion polls, but strongly suspect - that the vast majority of the population don't know the ultimate (as opposed to proximate) reasons behind Bonfire Night. Select a sample of the population at random and ask them; I'm confident the majority will say something along the lines of "Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament" (which is the proximate reason). Probe for the ultimate reason and ask why he should have wanted to do this however and your responses will plummet much, much closer to zero. Aside from professional historians and the interested amateur (minuscule numbers both), who knows or cares about English anti-Catholic repression and persecution in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries?

No argument again, and that has me really thinking

No, we can't sugar coat history, kids need to know all the facts, same with religion, the good the bad and the downright ugly.

Gonnagle

[Rhiannon]

Dear Shaker,

Less and less so by the year. Religious funerals are waning and secular funerals rising correspondingly. In terms of marriage over two thirds (68%, the last I heard, but by now may be even higher) of marriages are strictly secular, civil ones.

No argument from me, but religion is still mentioned, secular funeral as opposed to

In one case, paganism

Religion again and on the subject of paganism, how does your natural pagan soul feel about today's weather ( although it may be nicer in your neck of the woods ) it is chucking it down here and I need to go out in it and stop procrastinating on this forum

Gonnagle.

Just took the dog for a walk in the tale end of last night's storm - perfect for an English autumn - and on the wind we could still smell the smoke from last night's bonfires.