Author Topic: Religion and altruism  (Read 23935 times)

ippy

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #100 on: November 08, 2015, 04:14:24 PM »

Quote

Well I suppose there will always be gullible people, when you add them all together, what a ginormous wast of time.

ippy

That comment demonstrates nicely the weakness of your position.  The majority of the world's population, billions of them, have some religious belief:  and you class them as gullible - typical atheist blindness and arrogance.

If some idea, if any idea has absolutely nothing, zero credible evidence that would or could support it; it wouldn't matter how many take up this idea it's still hasn't got anything that would or could support it, it's a bit like what does a million times zero add up to the answer zero.

If something isn't true no matter how many think it is true, it remains a fiction just like your manual does, theirs no viable evidence that could support it, especially the superstition, myth and magical tricks parts of it.   

No, you'll have to do better than that B A.

ippy

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2015, 07:03:17 PM »
How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.
Most children these days aren't baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.
Increasingly 'hatch, match and dispatch' are marked without religion. Certainly hatch and match are much more likely to be marked without religion than with - not sure about despatch, but the trend is most definitely away from religion.

School, school assembly or history lessons, history lessons without mentioning religion!
Many non faith schools focus on morality, sharing community etc in assemblies in an entirely non religious way. Sure religion is mentioned in history, but so is fascism, communism and the Battle of Hastings - so what.

Does your council building fly a flag, here in Glasgow it is usually three flags, Saltire or St Andrews cross, Union flag and sometimes our cities emblem, all three flags are religiously inspired.
But flags such as the Saltire or Union flag are primarily symbols of nationalism, not of religion. If their primary influence and importance was religious then the Saltire, for example would be just as important to English Christians as to Scottish Christians and unimportant to a Sottish nationalist who is an atheist. But it isn't - why because although its origin is religious its significance is no longer largely religious but effectively as a symbol of nationalism.

Our national sport, well here in Glasgow, sadly you can't escape religion, but at most sporting events we ask God to save the Queen, the monarchy, religion again.
But that's a rather peculiarly scottish thing isn't it. I don't think religion had any meaningful bearing in yesterday's match between my team Watford and Leicester - do you?

On national anthems - again primarily nationalist not religious. If primarily religious in influence then surely French Christians would much prefer our national anthem with its mention of god to their own which isn't religious at all.

Our two biggest holidays, religion.
Both multifaceted - being just as much seasonal festivals as religious ones - indeed one (in the UK at least) is named after a pagan spring deity. And most people don't celebrate either as religious festivals - sure, of course there are many who do, but most people don't. And as with bonfire night - just because there is a cultural tradition of celebrating it doesn't mean that people are necessarily influenced by their religious origins rather than their cultural inertia, so to speak.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 07:07:35 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2015, 07:15:39 PM »
How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.
Most children these days aren't baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.
Increasingly 'hatch, match and dispatch' are marked without religion. Certainly hatch and match are much more likely to be marked without religion than with - not sure about despatch, but the trend is most definitely away from religion.

Yes unfortunately toward that interminable dirge ''I did it my fucking way''.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2015, 07:31:09 PM »
How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.
Most children these days aren't baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.
Increasingly 'hatch, match and dispatch' are marked without religion. Certainly hatch and match are much more likely to be marked without religion than with - not sure about despatch, but the trend is most definitely away from religion.

Yes unfortunately toward that interminable dirge ''I did it my fucking way''.
Or any number of other non religious pieces of music.

My Father's funeral had the allegro Mozart's clarinet quintet, the last post (those both his choice) and Home at Last, the final piece on Dave Brubeck's Jazz Impressions of the USA, an album that meant a huge amount to him and also my mother. My brother and I chose the last piece. It is gorgeous, peaceful and very, very moving, particular if you understand its personal significance, which is surely the whole point.

Sure there are plenty of cringe inducing non religious piece that might be used at funerals, but there are also some pretty cliched and cringey hymns too (All things bright and beautiful anyone :o).

« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 07:33:50 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2015, 08:10:33 PM »
How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.
Most children these days aren't baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.
Increasingly 'hatch, match and dispatch' are marked without religion. Certainly hatch and match are much more likely to be marked without religion than with - not sure about despatch, but the trend is most definitely away from religion.

Yes unfortunately toward that interminable dirge ''I did it my fucking way''.
Or any number of other non religious pieces of music.

My Father's funeral had the allegro Mozart's clarinet quintet, the last post (those both his choice) and Home at Last, the final piece on Dave Brubeck's Jazz Impressions of the USA, an album that meant a huge amount to him and also my mother. My brother and I chose the last piece. It is gorgeous, peaceful and very, very moving, particular if you understand its personal significance, which is surely the whole point.

Sure there are plenty of cringe inducing non religious piece that might be used at funerals, but there are also some pretty cliched and cringey hymns too (All things bright and beautiful anyone :o).
All things bright and beautiful is the one with Hindu lyrics......The rich man in his castle the poor man at his gate etc.
Your Father's funeral had some very tasteful music if I may say so.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2015, 08:18:59 PM »
I would be having Going Underground by The Jam, just a pity I will.be getting cremated.

Shaker

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2015, 09:48:42 PM »
How many parents have been asked the question, has your child been baptised.
Most children these days aren't baptised.

That's birth what about death, what kind of funeral, religion is still mentioned.
Increasingly 'hatch, match and dispatch' are marked without religion. Certainly hatch and match are much more likely to be marked without religion than with - not sure about despatch, but the trend is most definitely away from religion.

Yes unfortunately toward that interminable dirge ''I did it my fucking way''.
That's the Sid Vicious version but others are available.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2015, 09:52:45 PM »
I would be having Going Underground by The Jam, just a pity I will.be getting cremated.
My list of preferred funeral music is so long (and many of the individual pieces so long in themselves) that I'll be having a memorial concert, not a funeral.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2015, 09:53:33 PM »
I would be having Going Underground by The Jam, just a pity I will.be getting cremated.
Disco inferno.........The Trammps.

Rhiannon

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2015, 09:55:03 PM »
I've thrown a spanner in the works by asking for a woodland burial. No music except birdsong and the breeze in the branches.

Shaker

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2015, 09:59:13 PM »
I've thrown a spanner in the works by asking for a woodland burial. No music except birdsong and the breeze in the branches.
I've gone for a green burial myself (or rather, a green burial of my ashes).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2015, 10:01:07 PM »
I've thrown a spanner in the works by asking for a woodland burial. No music except birdsong and the breeze in the branches.
You should write books.

Rhiannon

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2015, 10:01:36 PM »
Actually what I really fancy is going up on a blazing Viking ship but hey...

Rhiannon

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2015, 10:03:46 PM »
I've thrown a spanner in the works by asking for a woodland burial. No music except birdsong and the breeze in the branches.
You should write books.

I doubt you'd understand them.  :)

Shaker

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #114 on: November 08, 2015, 10:05:09 PM »
Actually what I really fancy is going up on a blazing Viking ship but hey...
Considered that but the authorities tend to be rather uppity about it.

By the way - many people think of a Viking longship funeral as involving fire, but on most occasions important Vikings were simply buried in the boat, in the ground, as-is. Far easier to arrange that - if you can find somebody to build you the boat, at huge expense ...
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #115 on: November 08, 2015, 10:09:29 PM »
Funnily enough I've just watched Boromir going out that way on LOTR - that's to say not in flames - so we were discussing boat burials.

Be more fun with flames though.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #116 on: November 08, 2015, 10:25:20 PM »
Beau Geste

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2015, 02:18:25 AM »
For funeral music, I love Chopin's Funeral March but that would be too foreign for my send off considering my roots. I love this Cree memorial song. 2nd link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgw_RD_1_5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNcdpm9cNMs

jeremyp

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2015, 05:23:06 AM »

Sure there are plenty of cringe inducing non religious piece that might be used at funerals, but there are also some pretty cliched and cringey hymns too (All things bright and beautiful anyone :o).
All things scabbed and ulcerous
All pox both great and small
Putrid, foul and gangrenous
The Lord God made them all, Amen
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2015, 07:43:35 AM »
I think the most important thing about music chosen for a funeral is that it meant something to the deceased and also to the closest people to the deceased.

So better to have Frank Sinatra or even Robbie Williams 'Angels' if they really meant something to those involved, rather than some hymn if it meant nothing.

Owlswing

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2015, 08:10:34 AM »

Sure there are plenty of cringe inducing non religious piece that might be used at funerals, but there are also some pretty cliched and cringey hymns too (All things bright and beautiful anyone :o).
All things scabbed and ulcerous
All pox both great and small
Putrid, foul and gangrenous
The Lord God made them all, Amen

I recommend Monty Python's version. It is a reminder of just who was the nasty who inflicted all the unpleasantnesses upon the world and all in six days!

And we are supposed to love him for it?

How anyone who has watched someone they loved die from cancer can continue to love the deity who thought that particular pestilence up is beyond me, and then have his followers tell you that some good will come from this evil, that is, I presume, that they are dead so they are no longer suffering.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #121 on: November 09, 2015, 08:12:31 AM »
I've thrown a spanner in the works by asking for a woodland burial. No music except birdsong and the breeze in the branches.
I've gone for a green burial myself (or rather, a green burial of my ashes).

I will also be cremated and my children and my Coven will cast my ashes to the four winds from Glastonbury Tor at midnight.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 08:22:07 AM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Rhiannon

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2015, 08:12:51 AM »
I think the most important thing about music chosen for a funeral is that it meant something to the deceased and also to the closest people to the deceased.

So better to have Frank Sinatra or even Robbie Williams 'Angels' if they really meant something to those involved, rather than some hymn if it meant nothing.

Years ago I had to provide my parish priest with a copy of the West Ham Utd Anthems cassette courtesy of my dad for a funeral - the guy went out to I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #123 on: November 09, 2015, 02:13:24 PM »

Sure there are plenty of cringe inducing non religious piece that might be used at funerals, but there are also some pretty cliched and cringey hymns too (All things bright and beautiful anyone :o).
All things scabbed and ulcerous
All pox both great and small
Putrid, foul and gangrenous
The Lord God made them all, Amen

Very mature!  It it's meant to be funny: it's not.  If it's meant to be offensive: it's childish.  In fact, it's a total waste of time and effort.  No wonder you attract abusive comments!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Rhiannon

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Re: Religion and altruism
« Reply #124 on: November 09, 2015, 02:18:53 PM »
It's a fair point though, BA. Why give thanks for the pretty and fluffy and not the bacteria and the viruses?